what was the motivation behind 9/11

[Monta8mixes]

who profited from 9/11?

and did it really make oil cheaper?[/i]

[shakur420]

Good read. Just remember, they don't invade countries, install dictators, sell them arms and technology, etc. in order to make oil cheaper for us, for the population, they do that in order to make sure specific economic policies are carried out in markets that they consider their domains, to make sure that imports, exports, production, resources and investment benefit the Empire and it's business class. Their goal with oil is to ensure that they have veto power over it's use. They need to make sure they can control other nations' access to oil, so they will follow orders as needed. They don't need control of that oil for domestic consumption, they can just buy it. They need control for what people sometimes call the "oil veto".
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20010919.htm

[shakur420]

Every terrorist state on the planet profited from 9/11. So did every arms company, food distributors who supply armies, uniform manufacturers, defense contractors, etc., etc. States like China, Russia, Turkey, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Sri Lanka, Canada, etc., all stepped up surveillance, arrests, torture and counter-terrorism efforts - meaning they increased their terrorism. Countries everywhere stripped away civil liberties. Everyone profited, except regular people, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Kurds, Americans, Arabs, socialists, internet users, etc.
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/ny0304/ny0304.pdf
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publicati...et32EN.pdf
http://www.amnesty.org/en/ai_search?keyw...5d963b273f
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/03/25/na...-worldwide

If you were wondering in terms of who would've had motives for carrying it out and framing "Muslim extremists", well I don't know, I'd have to give you the same list again. Many states have issues with resistance groups, who have grievances over things like repression, rights, independence, justice, freedom, etc. Many of them happen to claim Islam as well, so I don't know.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opin...77959.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-sla...32466.html
http://www.osce.org/mc/54043
http://antiwar.com/horton/?articleid=6720

The motivation, if you believe Bin Laden when he says that it was carried out by people affiliated with the resistance network they call "Al Qaeda", was to strike a blow against American imperialism for their attacks on civilian populations, their financial, military, political and ideological support/authorization of the brutal military occupation of Palestinians, the existence of American military bases on what he/they consider holy lands and their use of client governments in countries where populations need to be subdued in order to implement the economic goals of the Empire.

Other than that, I'm not really sure about much else. Whether it "raised the cost of oil", again, I'm not really sure. Oil has gone up in my country, significantly, in the last decade, and around the world too as far as I'm aware but I'm not really up to speed on how that market works. We know that prices go up when demand increases or supply/production decreases, for any commodity. So, with oil, it's not only the supply that affects price, the confirmed reserves, but also the production. Usually, when production goes down, say like when they attacked Iraq, prices go up. Whether prices are (significantly) manipulated through the invasion of countries, it's hard for me to say, I'm not familiar with that shit so much. So like, would the oil companies have supported the invasion of Iraq, because it would drive oil prices up? Well, I'm pretty sure they were opposed. They were supportive of continuing business as usual and, of course, increasing their business, buying, selling, tapping, drilling, building, refining, etc. Once it was clear that they were gonna fuck the country up, yeah, they came around and began vying for contracts with whoever was gonna take control. Was the war launched to increase oil profits? I don't see how.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure I've read that the corporate sector was good with the way things were going, were openly opposing invasion and if anything, wanted more freedom to do business with Saddam. When you look at the strategic importance of the oil, why control of it (not profits) is so important, it makes more sense that the invasion was for control and for "credibility". One of the local businesses was refusing to pay "protection money", or was organizing demonstrations against the organized crime epidemic in the neighborhood, or just speaking out, being a snitch, whatever. The message needed to be sent. The invasions/destruction of Kosovo and Afghanistan were for similar reasons, in my opinion. What they call the "Bush doctrine", "Monroe Doctrine", or whatever else they've come up with to describe their right to "maintain credibility" and "defend themselves". Just like when hitler was "defending" people against Polish terrorists. Sending a message to the world, to enemies and allies alike, that the Don will act unilaterally, the law doesn't apply to him. So, of course, they've always sent that message whenever necessary, it's not particularly new (like when they sign the torture or Geneva conventions, they include reservations that exempt themselves from the jurisdiction of the conventions), but these were so brazen, so in your face. It was kind of like a coming of age for NATO. The official purpose, to "contain" the Soviets, has evaporated. So they need new pretexts for it's existence, expansion and shit. Well, since there's no rival, since there's no Soviet deterrent anymore, they are free to do as they please, anywhere. They made that clear, the corporate sector will profit, oil control will become more firmly locked in place and they can station thousands and thousands of more troops in the area, build more bases and stuff. It seems like a pretty good idea, no?

The U.S. needs to have their hand on the tap so they can wield what's sometimes called the "oil veto", a bargaining chip, the envelope of nude photos you whip out when you blackmail someone. Russia has a lot of oil, but Japan and China buy theirs. You start cutting off those sources of energy flowing to China and they're fucked. This is why oil is so important to states, why they need to control it. Sure, companies and people get rich off selling it, that's also a factor. But today, in the modern world, oil-rich countries with dictators like Saddam are more than willing to let foreign companies come in, do all the work and take most of the profit - as long as they get their piece, their cut. There was no need to overthrow Saddam if all they wanted was access for profit. They had that already. Same with Gaddafi, they had access and they were makin profits. Yes, Gaddafi, I read, had recently threatened some foreign business interests, but if the U.S. hadn't looked so bad supporting Mubarak, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi when trouble broke out in Libya, you can bet that they would've been sending shipments of arms to him, er, "crowd control" equipment I mean, instead of dropping bombs. And if he hadn't been such a wildcard for them, if he had been reliable like Mubarak, they would've been sending in diplomats instead of NATO. They overthrew him because they wanted too, just like Saddam, not because they wanted oil profits. They overthrew them both in such a flagrant, illegal way to maintain their "credibility". They sent a message to the world, like they do every few years, to remind everyone who runs the block, who the Don is. They don't need to invade countries to increase oil profits, not today. Companies already have access to that shit. They could've carried out coups if they needed to just replace the head, like Chavez and Zelaya. Invading the country like that, against such big opposition, not only from the people, but from their own intelligence services, from their own corporations, I think it's unlikely that they would've attacked Iraq, Libya or attacked their own soil to manipulate oil prices. They can do that with regulation, taxes, giving orders to client states, fucking with wall street through trading and shit, investment, etc.

Random, came across this last night.

Quote:"Now take Japan: Japanese corporations and investors can collect a lot of capital, but they're never going to get their own resources-they don't have their own energy resources, they don't have their own raw materials, they don't have agricultural resources. And we do: that makes a big difference. In fact, American planners back in the late 1940s were very well aware of this difference when they sort of organized the post-war world-so while they helped Japan to reindustrialize, they also insisted on controlling its energy resources: the Japanese were not allowed to develop their own petrochemical industry, or to obtain their own independent access to petroleum resources. And the reason for that is explained in now-declassified U.S. internal documents: as George Kennan [State Department official and diplomat], who was one of the major planners of the post-war world, pointed out, if we control Japan's energy resources, we will have veto power over Japan if they ever get out of line, we'll just choke off their energy supply.49 Now, whether or not that plan would still work you don't know, because the world is changing in unpredictable ways. But for the moment, the United States is still overwhelmingly powerful in world affairs - that's why we can get away with so much."

49 http://www.understandingpower.com/chap2.htm



- "Understanding Power", p.60, Noam Chomsky

[SwagAndTechnique]

Basically, the aim was to make the Muslim people look bad infront of the world and to get into Iraq after several attempts of enforcing this action..

[Younes]

The aim of this was to fight back an imperialist nation who have shitted on people for the last 150-200 years bro. That was the purpose, and now that Iraq and Afghanistan have happend, might aswell look forward to more civilian americans being butchered and their deaths celebrated. One day all these oppressed abused people, Asians, Arabs, Africans, South Americans will walk into America and buttfuck that nation till only ruins will stand as a proof that such a nation ever existed.

Look into Rome and Aleric, Geiseric & Totila, all of them from people who Rome oppressed, came back to fuck over Rome badly... Same will happen to USA...

Look forward to it... faggots..

[1871]

I initially thanked your post shakur since you got some things right - but when I read the link s in your post I took the thanks off since they contradicted what you said in too many respects.

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(12-01-2011 11:04 AM)SwagAndTechnique Wrote:  Basically, the aim was to make the Muslim people look bad infront of the world and to get into Iraq after several attempts of enforcing this action..

They had clandestine operations. Its well documented that the CIA had extensive involvement and they were itching for a big enough excuse to get into Iraq with a full scale invasion since the gulf war and before. They are still smarting that their man the Shah was kicked out of Iran and that's what they have their eyes on now.

[Boboulas]

Just as a side note: 9/11 conspiracy theories promote american imperialism over seas. Detracting working people form the fact that american foriegn policy is actually the cause. Maintains the illusion that what we are doing in the middle east isnt wrong.

[shakur420]

Read the links again and think about the comments that have been hyperlinked to the source. None of the references I dropped will have the same tone, or even opinion as what I wrote, but that's the point, no? To read the sources and think about it. If it doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't make sense to you but unless you give me some specific examples, I can't really do much more than tell you to check again, lol. Like maybe I posted a wrong link or something, or you haven't read the references in their entirety, I don't know.

[1871]

Sorry shakur - dont quite get you there. Say the bit about the oil -BP and co. meeting with the gov. to press for intervention. Libya is a good example on this.
Of course they can control markets exactly as you say, but with China,India etc as emerging economies there will be increased demand for oil , so purely from an economic point of view it makes sense to have a hands on control. Western oil companies were already there with Libya but I am sure that they were just as concerned about who these 'rebels' were - especially with people like Belhaj who was tortured and has since been sidelined by the NTC.
From a business point of view Iraq obviously had a geopolitical significance. Today they are talking about instituting a trade embargo on Iran.

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(12-01-2011 01:43 PM)Boboulas Wrote:  Just as a side note: 9/11 conspiracy theories promote american imperialism over seas. Detracting working people form the fact that american foriegn policy is actually the cause. Maintains the illusion that what we are doing in the middle east isnt wrong.

I dont know about that. I dont think that 'conpiracy theories' (Whatever that means) detract people from an awareness of Imperialism. The history of CIA involvement in other states, including Iraq, has a long, well documented history - and employees at the CIA have written some interesting books on the subject.

[Chino]

to fuck us all over for the oil

"Ryuutou Dabi"
best description for the U.S.A. from now on.

FYI: it means "dragon's head, snake's tail"

[shakur420]

Dude, that's where we have to do some thinking. The oil companies, like BP, were not pushing for war, they were pushing for contracts. Think of the timeline. When Bush declares war, the decision isn't made that morning. It's made before we know what's going on, and it's definitely made before it's released in the mainstream news. This is random but my boss was just telling me that he saw W last night. He mentioned a scene where they had made the decision to invade Iraq in '91 long before presenting the case to the world or some shit like that. I don't really know, but what I have read is that they knew they were going into Iraq before Saddam even went into Kuwait, lol. He had been meeting with the U.S. ambassador or something, telling him that he was gonna take Kuwait and the response from the Americans was basically "meh, Arab problem, not ours". As soon as he does it, they turn around and declare war? HAHA, mad baited. Anyways, the point is, these decisions are made at some point, oil companies bargaining for resource allocation and market share doesn't mean that they were pushing for war, it just means that they knew what was going down and were trynna make sure they got their cut.

[Rick Ross 187]

OPEC controls the price of oil

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(12-01-2011 12:48 PM)Younes Wrote:  The aim of this was to fight back an imperialist nation who have shitted on people for the last 150-200 years bro.

Why then, did they try and attack Singapore too?

9/11 wasn't anti-imperialist. THe group responsible want to restore an Empire lol, how can they be anti-imperialist. Anti-American imperialism, sure, but then the Germans were anti-British imperialism in the Middle East so whatever.

Feelings of hatred towards unjust American foreign policy and imperialism may motivate people to sympathise with Al-Qaeda etc, but really its ideology goes a lot deeper than that.

Quote:That was the purpose, and now that Iraq and Afghanistan have happend, might aswell look forward to more civilian americans being butchered and their deaths celebrated.

tbh i don't think any terrorist group has the power to pull of another near to 9/11 in America again. Maybe, I'm proven wrong, I hope not though.

Quote:One day all these oppressed abused people, Asians, Arabs, Africans, South Americans will walk into America and buttfuck that nation till only ruins will stand as a proof that such a nation ever existed.

what a weird sadistic dream. I hope America stops fucking with the world, and the rest of the world is able to raise its living standards without America holding them down. This historically was the great anti-imperialists of the 20th century. Nkrumah, Fanon, Lumumba, CLR James, Nehru etc all held that the Western World provided a model of how their societies could be, with enlightenment values, technology , science, and mass prosperity, but Imperialism and Colonialism from the Western world was stopping them achieving this. Its dumb for anti-imperialists to want to tear america down.

Quote:Look into Rome and Aleric, Geiseric & Totila, all of them from people who Rome oppressed, came back to fuck over Rome badly... Same will happen to USA...

Why is that something good? What followed was a regression of society, with a collapse in living standards, technological innovation, learning and cities. All the great ideas of the the Romans and Greeks disappeared for nearly 1000 years in Europe, until thankfuly Arabs bought them back to European though.

'I denounce the scholarship of European colonialism', CLR James wrote, 'But I respect the learning and profound discoveries of Western civilisation.'

think u been watching too many postapocolyptic films bro. I know, they're dope, i love them too, but maybe u should lay off them