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**Asshole** · (This post was last modified: 12-16-2011 06:33 AM by Asshole.)

here's my opinion on voting to reform and reformism as a whole.

even if you do vote for the lesser of evil, you are simply delaying the inevitability of the other evil. how? imagine the democrats as one boot, republicans as the other. sure, the democrats may apply less pressure than the GOP. they may allow us breathing room. they may be benevolent when suits them. but the boot is still on our neck. and the american voter recognizes a boot, recognizes oppression, recognizes evil even if it is the lesser of two. what they forget however, is the greater body of the boots, the bourgeois.

next election, they are voting the incumbent out. even if the alternative is worse. meanwhile, the few the recognize the root of oppression have to battle bullshit like "if you don't vote, you can't complain." fuck that. i'm not going to perpetuate and validate this. especially when the impact is miniscule and ultimately absent.

it is the job of those who happened upon the cause of such oppression to educate others. go to the masses with pamphlets, go out there with flyers, with events, with conversation, community organization, etc. seek to change the system, not simply alternate the faces of the monster. protest, march, mic check, occupy, sit in, freedom ride, hold rallies.

and if you get a clear shot on the owner of those boots, shoot that motherfucker.

but voting will forever be a counterproductive attempt. reformism will never work applied to a system made by- and for- the bourgeois. we can wait on bourgeois benevolence. we can wait for segregation to obsolete itself among the ruling class, the vietnam war to no longer be politically viable, we can wait for the Japanese interment camps to be no longer needed. we can wait for SOPA, the defense bill, the Patriot Act, the wars, etc to fade away into irrelevancy. the whole of industrialized America’s politics can be defined as populist swings met by the bourgeois; the pendulum being the displeased voter. the reason the republican candidates act so crazy is because their base has radicalized into extreme conservatism; politically, its quite brilliant. we can wait for the pendulum to swing back towards liberalism as it wrecks havoc for another decade or so. we can wait for times to improve so the capitalists compensate back. just hold out your hands and wait at the ballot box.

but i doubt that will happen. the American economy is going downhill, the brakes are cut, and the driver is blindfolded by Newscorp, religion, and jingoism. fascism is an extreme reaction of capitalism, and in the words of trotsky: “The historic function of fascism is to smash the working class, destroy its organizations, and stifle political liberties when the capitalists find themselves unable to govern and dominate with the help of democratic machinery.” and for the bourgeois to maintain their power hold, that is looking more and more likely.

there needs to be a fundamental shift from liberal reformism as a whole. we see what has happened. obama is nearly neoconservative, the only thing keeping him from being the GOP’s candidate is the sheer insanity of their own fundamentalists. clinton was no better. its capitalism in its hideous tyranny, nothing can be changed from inside.

don’t be afraid to say revolution.

i also made a concerted effort here to use colloquial diction, i'll save the academic bullshit for formal papers. trying to relate better.

**Fuzzly Bear** · 12-16-2011, 06:38 AM

capitalism is a boss

what's gop?

show me a revolution that has ended well. orwell was right, until the socio-economic revolution comes about (??) we will just have to choose the least bad of our very poor options and make the most of it, you utopian swine

**YaelTheGreat** · 12-16-2011, 06:42 AM

LOL, you consider yourself a revolutionary because you do not vote? Your hardcore son. I am pretty sure that reformism is the process of trying to change the system, within the system. I think that you can do a lot while reforming the system. You can't move from a society where most people are not really independent, nor do they have the skills to live without the current global economy. I think that we need people to begin to reform laws and fight against injustices legally and try to create public awareness and support for real change. We need to reform the system so that when a true revolution occurs, it won't miserably fail because of panic caused by not knowing what to do. This may not be coherent but I am sleepy and will probably update it in the morning.

**Asshole** · 12-16-2011, 06:45 AM

grand old party- republicans. orwell was also a trotskyist

. history has been one helical revolution after another. democratic economics will have its soon. dialectics necessitate it; humanity needs it.

**The Stoned Raj** · 12-16-2011, 07:07 AM

(12-16-2011 06:38 AM)HamishFTW Wrote: capitalism is a boss

what's gop?

show me a revolution that has ended well. orwell was right, until the socio-economic revolution comes about (??) we will just have to choose the least bad of our very poor options and make the most of it, you utopian swine

Capitalism is indeed a boss

"show me a revolution that has ended well."

depends when you consider the "end" of that revolution.

Show me a revolution that hasn't risen out of necessity, or one that has risen out of a desire to impose upon the working class and the masses.

**Boboulas** · 12-16-2011, 01:19 PM

Theres nothing wrong with voting as long as you understand that it is not going to radically change society, its a tactic, not a strategy. Thats my opinion anyway, and thats why i vote in every ellective process im allowed to participate in.

P.S Voting doesnt just occur in big presidential or national ellections, there are many local ones too.

**YaelTheGreat** · 12-16-2011, 01:54 PM

Okay, this is a reiteration of what a previously said, just more coherent.

Lets begin with a snide comment: Laz, you consider not voting revolutionary? Reformism is not the act of slowly, may be quickly i done really well, of changing the system for the better.We live in a pretty fucked up society; rape is ridiculously common, murder is rampant, and dangerous drugs are way to easily distributed and abused. Also, social rifts caused by varying factors- religion, political racial projects, and other social projects by various groups- that cause further more complex and delicate problems. Reformism would help this problem. We can't just start a revolution without preparng the people. That would cause chaos and failure. We need to change the system so that when revolution does occur, people are prepared for the changes. I am talking particularly about the "civilized" countries- or the ones that are more free than most. Some conuntries would need to revolution quickly because there is no reformism option, but that is a different conversation all toghether.

**Asshole** · 12-16-2011, 04:58 PM

(12-16-2011 01:19 PM)Boboulas Wrote: Theres nothing wrong with voting as long as you understand that it is not going to radically change society, its a tactic, not a strategy. Thats my opinion anyway, and thats why i vote in every ellective process im allowed to participate in.

P.S Voting doesnt just occur in big presidential or national ellections, there are many local ones too.

i was referring to nationals. local ones, due to the proximity of the candidates and the smaller population to organize, is a great use of reformism. but ultimately, it is a poor substitution. and national elections are not meaningless, but detrimental. obama has hurt the left more than any Tea Party maniac.

(12-16-2011 01:54 PM)YaelTheGreat Wrote: Lets begin with a snide comment: Laz, you consider not voting revolutionary?

no i consider this revolutionary.

(12-16-2011 06:32 AM)Laz Wrote: it is the job of those who happened upon the cause of such oppression to educate others. go to the masses with pamphlets, go out there with flyers, with events, with conversation, community organization, etc. seek to change the system, not simply alternate the faces of the monster. protest, march, mic check, occupy, sit in, freedom ride, hold rallies.

and if you get a clear shot on the owner of those boots, shoot that motherfucker.

i do however believe participation in national elections to be unintentionally and accidentally reactionist.

(12-16-2011 01:54 PM)YaelTheGreat Wrote: Reformism is not the act of slowly, may be quickly i done really well, of changing the system for the better.We live in a pretty fucked up society; rape is ridiculously common, murder is rampant, and dangerous drugs are way to easily distributed and abused. Also, social rifts caused by varying factors- religion, political racial projects, and other social projects by various groups- that cause further more complex and delicate problems. Reformism would help this problem. We can't just start a revolution without preparng the people. That would cause chaos and failure. We need to change the system so that when revolution does occur, people are prepared for the changes. I am talking particularly about the "civilized" countries- or the ones that are more free than most. Some conuntries would need to revolution quickly because there is no reformism option, but that is a different conversation all toghether.

exactly, community organization and political education needs to be arranged beforehand. the occupy movement is a prime example. across america, they are rallying, organizing, protesting, discussing, reading, debating, putting out propaganda, holding education sessions, the unions are moving towards a revolutionary stance, we have instances of foreclosured homes being repossessed. but it's no revolution. nor should it be- yet.

**Fuzzly Bear** · 12-16-2011, 06:14 PM

OCCUPY IS ACHIEVING AND WILL ACHIEVE SO MUCH!

the end of a revolution?

i guess the collapse of the soviet bloc, and the rise of napoleon, pretty much signals the definite end of two of the greatest revolutions of the past 200 years. american revolution, look how that ended as well

'necessity'
'imposition'
all these revolutions that you cite involve imposition in some form.
political language. wonderful. i'm sure you won't end up fucking some poor cunts over. but it's all for the greater good

**Asshole** · 12-16-2011, 06:19 PM

both revolutions modernized and liberalized the countries. not saying the actions taken after the revolutions were justified nor would i encourage it. i'm very anti-stalinist. but, even the worse revolutions advance a people. we just have to have a democratic one.

**Fuzzly Bear** · 12-16-2011, 06:29 PM

yea returned la france to la monarchy. woooooooooooooooooooo! more war! woooooo! modernisation for the sake of modernisation must be discouraged. hooray for liberty

how you gonna have a democratic revolution?

**Boboulas** · 12-16-2011, 06:36 PM

Quote:i was referring to nationals. local ones, due to the proximity of the candidates and the smaller population to organize, is a great use of reformism. but ultimately, it is a poor substitution. and national elections are not meaningless, but detrimental. obama has hurt the left more than any Tea Party maniac.

Quote:i do however believe participation in national elections to be unintentionally and accidentally reactionist.

So national elections are not meaningless but if you vote in them you are doing something reactionary? (According to you). What is reactionary about voting in national elections?