for the islamophobes

[shakur420]

Check some of the links I dropped, some of them go over this verse, look up the verse and read the verses before and after. You can also then go and search for when this verse was dropped, what was going on, if it was directed at certain groups of people if you wanna catch a better understanding of the context. Make up your own mind, who cares what we think? All I know is that this verse appears once, maybe? Mentions of "reflecting" and thinking for yourself are rampant in the Quran, that seems more important to me than figuring out whether the word is "ally", "friend" or "protector".

Plus, Chomsky is ethnically a Jew, not religious. To answer the question, you gotta figure out whether the verse is speaking of the Jewish ethnicity or religion or both, or even if there was such a concept of ethnic Jews back then. I don't know, I guess jihadwatch would have some solid, credible info on it.

On a side note, maybe someone can answer. I've heard about cultural definitions and words as well, like how we have slang. Sure, there are dozens of meanings for certain words, those get narrowed depending on the context, the subject of the discussion and stuff, but there must've been slang as well back then, there always is. How do translations/interpretations take this into account? Like, lol, people reading these forum posts 30 years from now will see me calling everyone "motherfucker" in a hostile and affectionate way. How do "scholars" of the Quran take this type of use into account?

[Asshole]

anyone else open this thread again just because they say myth posted?

[TheMythOfSisyphus]

Damnit Laz, stop giving openings for 1871 to poop on my self esteem.

[1871]

I see Im not going to find out anything about 5:51 here so I will go investigate myself.

---

^
should read investigate for myself. not investigate myself.

......

Quote:shakur420

Plus, Chomsky is ethnically a Jew, not religious. To answer the question, you gotta figure out whether the verse is speaking of the Jewish ethnicity or religion or both, or even if there was such a concept of ethnic Jews back then. I don't know, I guess jihadwatch would have some solid, credible info on it.

No - as youve just admitted - you dont know. Try reading some historical sources. Telling how referred to Jihadwatch and not Josephus. Speaks volumes on your approach. Interesting also that you will at once slight Jihadwatch then say they have solid,credible info on it.

[shakur420]

Sure, is that what those crazy kids are calling it these days, "investigating" yourself? Whatever happened to masturbating, jerking off or rubbing out a quick one? Fucking slang, I'm getting too old for this shit...

[Shakir_Muhammad]

Our friend Introcluse has decided to change his criteria mid stride from translations done by Islamic Scholars with Islamic credentials to translations done by Islamic Scholars with Islamic credentials pre 9/11/2001. What a character this guy is.

Okay Introcluse, here's a translation that has also translated the Arabic word "AWLIYA" to "Allies" instead of friends. Oh, and it's pre 9/11/2001 too. It's The Message of The Quran translated and commentary by The Late Preeminent Scholar of Islam Muhammad Asad.

He had received his academic training in Pakistan, India and Saudi Arabia. He also made it a point to live in the countryside of Saudi Arabia in order to train his ears and mind to absorbing the untainted Arabic language of the people in the countryside. His translation was published in 1980!! I'd say that's pre 9/11 wouldn't you?

Even to till this day, the late Muhammad Asad is still admired and respected by the Muslim World for being a solid and rational scholar of Islam.

By the way Introcluse, your real name wouldn't by chance be Geert Wilders, would it?

[Introcluse]

I gave you exactly what you asked for and NOW all of a sudden you want to change the criteria that you have already set. Where in YOUR QUOTE above did you say ONLY translations done prior to 9/11/2001?? Where??? I gave you an Islamic Scholar with and Islamic academic background in Islamic and Arabic Studies and you have yet again came up with a creative excuse as to WHY this Islamic Scholar doesn't count. Amazing Introcluse. So very amazing.

if you go up in the thread i did quite clearly make a point about this new watered down voguish contempary modernistic brand of islam being promulgated, just a shame it took 1400 years and planes being flown into skyscrapers at 400mph for it to emerge.

I think re-interpretations can be good as it can take away all the antagonising tones to non-muslims which quite obviously there are, however the concensus amongst islamic scholars is that people who do this are heretics/deviants and even apostates. There's an internal fight with the tradionalists & the modernists in islam and you know who muslims are siding with in the majority.

As for Immortal technique, no you don't need a degree in poliitics or even any kind of degree to read his work, just eyes. But if you have a degree you can better understand what he's saying, if you have a degree in politics you can even better understand his political views.

I have MASTERED The Arabic language and I am fully equipped to not only read it and understand it, but to comment on it as well.

I never claimed you had or hadn't mastered the arab language. Clearly once again evidence that you don't read replies, but just post an false dichotomy that you feel you can argue against.

Once again what's your qualification in islamic studies or any theology?

he Quran numerous times In Arabic and The Quran says NOTHING about academic bakgrounds, college degrees or anything like that in order to know what it says and to understand it. No where in The Quran does it say that a person has to have man made degrees in so-called Islamic Studies in order to read it. NO WHERE!!!!

Also nowhere does it state NOTHING about having to read it in arabic in order to know what it says and to understand it, yet you have presented this view as if the quran itself states it.

So WHERE did you get your ideas of 3:28 and 5:51 from?

Thousands of qurans from non-modernisers like yourself

How about another ENGLISH TRANSLATION of those same verses done by an Islamic Scholar who has an Islamic academic background....

LMAO those are renowned islamic scholars, also what happened to "you don't have to be a scholar"

as for shakur LOL shakur, Ladies and gentleman this is how you publically dodge having to back up a generic cliche you have repeated without checking if its in the doctrine


FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME please quote me the verse which says as you put it "Some verses are for a specific time". Not a bunch of commentaries with no backing from the doctrines but just personal view points from pro-islam websites and the politically correct about.com that u got from a 5 min google search

how about you get your buddy shakir to pull out his lexicon dictionary to reinterpret a verse to mean "some verse are for a specific time" after all you guys are experts at performing mental acrobatics

[YaelTheGreat]

Interclose, what is a legitimate source to you? Someone with a degree from a college; someone who has written extensively on the topic; or someone that you agree with?

[Shakir_Muhammad]

Seriously Introcluse, you're a bullet dodger and you know it. All joking aside...I'm serious. You have changed up your arguments more than once and this thread and all for the sake of not admitting that you were wrong about something and someone else proved it to you. Seriously Introcluse, you're not going to win every debate you enter into. You are going to have some L's too man.

(02-20-2012 01:43 PM)Introcluse Wrote:  if you go up in the thread i did quite clearly make a point about this new watered down voguish contempary modernistic brand of islam being promulgated, just a shame it took 1400 years and planes being flown into skyscrapers at 400mph for it to emerge.

That's what I mean Introcluse. You NEVER asked anyone involved in this thread to produce a translation done by a scholar pre 9/11/2001. You NEVER said that. I reposted your own quote in which you said you ONLY refer to the translations by scholars with Islamic academic training. That is all you said. I gave you two such translations which give a different rendering of 3:28 and 5:51 and instead of acknowledging and accepting this, you make up more excuses. And now you are trying to use your above quote to mean that "you were asking for a translation by a scholar pre 9/11." I see you just don't like to admit when you're wrong, you don't like to lose and you always have to have the last say. Why don't you grow up homie?

Hey Laz, if you're reading this, this is exactly what I was trying to warn you about. You have to read the other threads this dude has been involved in to see that this is his basic forte. He will never admit that he's been proven wrong and will always come back with a creative way of not admitting it.

Quote:I think re-interpretations can be good as it can take away all the antagonising tones to non-muslims which quite obviously there are, however the concensus amongst islamic scholars is that people who do this are heretics/deviants and even apostates. There's an internal fight with the tradionalists & the modernists in islam and you know who muslims are siding with in the majority.

So I guess any of us here who know the smoke and mirror tricks of the Federal Reserves to create paper, fiat money out of thin air are also heretics. You know that was the main reason they had to kill Muammar Gaddafi. He was trying to introduce REAL MONEY (gold dinar and silver dirham) into the African continent. A big no no to those who rule the world with this fake money they have created.

The situation with the Fed and what's going on the Muslims world have one thing in common. The present day view and understanding of Islam, just like the fiat money made by the Fed, are forced upon the people by Rule/Authority of The State!!! Anyone who questions or goes against this rule and authority will come up stinkin' somewhere.

You think you know so much about Islam, but the fact is that you don't know a damn thing. Because if you did, then you would know that the non-quranic, hadeeth based, fatwa ruling, fiqh mongering and oppressive Islam came into being during the Abbasid Dynasty!! I am openly challenging you or anyone else here who thinks he can prove otherwise.

The first journey into hadeeth was Bukhari during the Abbasid Dynasty. A Persian by the name of Sibaweyh (he wasn't even an Arab) wrote the first of grammar book of The Arabic Language and the common people were made to accept these new rules and teachings within Islam by Authority of The State!!! I would refer you to some books, but I know that you'll not go out and get them. You may be able to check them out your local Library if you request them. Otherwise, you'll come back and say that you won't take my word for it while still refusing to go the books I suggest. I have figured out how you operate a long time ago Intro. You will ask someone for evidence of some sort and when people post them for you to see, you refuse to read the links. But by not reading the links, you are left with going by the word of whoever posted them. But then you'll say that you are not just going to go by someone's word, so as far as you're concerned you still have yet to see proof. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't want YOU to correct me because you're a bonafide liar. I want someone else here to correct me and say "no, Introcluse doesn't operate like that at all. Here, look at these threads in which he doesn't do what you're saying, etc." Until then, you're a liar,

Quote:As for Immortal technique, no you don't need a degree in poliitics or even any kind of degree to read his work, just eyes.

Well, well now. What have we here? Now you are practicing double standards. You only need a pair of eyes to read Immortal Technique's articles, but you need more than just a pair of eyes to read The Quran. Even if you're an Arab and can read Arabic perfectly and know each and every word that is in The Quran. What is the ONLY difference between Tech's writings at his myspace page and The Quran?? One is written in English and the other is written in Arabic!!! YOU can read any of Tech's writings in English. Why? Because you know English!! I can read The Quran without missing a beat. Why? Because I know Arabic!!! Other than that (and a pair of eyes like you said) I don't need anything else. If you believe that I need something else such as training at Al Azhar or any of that other garbage you keep spewing you, then I am challenging you to point out Just One verse in The Quran that says such a thing!!! Produce just one verse that says no one can understand it unless they go to a school or receive academic training.

Hey Introcluse, news flash for you pal. The Quran wasn't meant to be read and understood only by intellectuals and academics. It is meant for the common man to use as a source of guidance and inspiration to aid them in a cause and a struggle they find themselves in.

Introcluse, don't be a hypocrite and practice these double standards!! You need no more than reading comprehension for The Quran just as much as for Tech's articles. Thank you for proving my point and thank you for exposing the hypocrisy in you.

Quote:I never claimed you had or hadn't mastered the arab language. Clearly once again evidence that you don't read replies, but just post an false dichotomy that you feel you can argue against.

I am telling you that I have mastery over this language to prove a point. I can read ANY MSA or Classical Arabic document including The Quran. I wasn't trying to say that you made a claim against this fact. You've misunderstood me. I was only letting you know that I well equipped to know what The Qurans says and does not say.

Quote:Once again what's your qualification in islamic studies or any theology?

Once again, where In The Quran does it say that is a requirement? If you can bring out just one verse that says this, I will immediately bow out of this debate after admitting that you were correct and I was incorrect. You don't have to bring me a whole bunch. Just one would do. Although it would be very difficult for you to do given that you don't know a lick of Arabic.

Quote:Also nowhere does it state NOTHING about having to read it in arabic in order to know what it says and to understand it, yet you have presented this view as if the quran itself states it.

Oh really Intro? Read 'em and weep buddy.....

12:2 إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

13:37 وَكَذَلِكَ أَنْزَلْنَاهُ حُكْمًا عَرَبِيًّا وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ بَعْدَمَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِنْ وَلِيٍّ وَلا وَاقٍ

20:113 وَكَذَلِكَ أَنْزَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا وَصَرَّفْنَا فِيهِ مِنَ الْوَعِيدِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ أَوْ يُحْدِثُ لَهُمْ ذِكْرًا

39:28 قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا غَيْرَ ذِي عِوَجٍ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ

41:3 كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ

41:44 وَلَوْ جَعَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا أَعْجَمِيًّا لَقَالُوا لَوْلا فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ أَأَعْجَمِيٌّ وَعَرَبِيٌّ قُلْ هُوَ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا هُدًى وَشِفَاءٌ وَالَّذِينَ لا يُؤْمِنُونَ فِي آذَانِهِمْ وَقْرٌ وَهُوَ عَلَيْهِمْ عَمًى أُولَئِكَ يُنَادَوْنَ مِنْ مَكَانٍ بَعِيدٍ

42:7 وَكَذَلِكَ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِتُنْذِرَ أُمَّ الْقُرَى وَمَنْ حَوْلَهَا وَتُنْذِرَ يَوْمَ الْجَمْعِ لا رَيْبَ فِيهِ فَرِيقٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَفَرِيقٌ فِي السَّعِيرِ

43:3 إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

Pay particular attention to 41:3 and 41:44. I would like for you to tell me what these verses say and please provide your complete word for word breakdown and definitions.

Quote:LMAO those are renowned islamic scholars, also what happened to "you don't have to be a scholar"

Yup, they are. Both of them are highly recognized and respected throughout The Muslim world. There's no way you can ever contest this. Neither of them are regarded as heretics, apostates or strayers in the Muslim world. You will NEVER find any fatwa against them or how they translated The Quran. Look all you want, you'll never find it.

As far as what happened to "you don't have to be a scholar"? You kept asking and insisting for for sources by "Scholars" that go against what you have been saying. I gave you two sources. So what, you want to change your mind on that too? Are you going to post something that said asking for scholars but switch it around and say "what I meant to say here is I don't care about scholars and credentials. Um, yeah that's what I was saying." ?

Quote:how about you get your buddy shakir to pull out his lexicon dictionary to reinterpret a verse to mean "some verse are for a specific time" after all you guys are experts at performing mental acrobatics

Dude, you're too much.

Since you are accusing me of playing acrobatics and all of that, can I ask you to please post something I said in which I was performing linguistic and mental acrobatics? PLeeeaaasse?

Accusations are one thing, to have proof is something altogether different.

Hey Geert, oh I mean Introcluse, when are you going to cut to the chase and just say how much you hate Muslims, they all suck and you wish they all would die off? That's what this is really about isn't it? I have read enough of your posts to know that you are pro Zionist and you hate Muslims with a passion.

Quote:Interclose, what is a legitimate source to you? Someone with a degree from a college; someone who has written extensively on the topic; or someone that you agree with?

I think you nailed it Yael.

[Raheem]

3:28 - The Believers should not make the disbelievers their ALLIES rather than other believers; anyone who does such a thing will isolate himself completely from God; 

As for 3:28 to me it says that do not take UNBELIEVERS as allies/friends/companions whatever you want to call it, rather than a BELIEVER. The argument or point is not if it says friends, allies or homeboys. The point is not to trust or choose an  unbelievers rather than a believer. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure you would trust your family over friends in some cases and you would choose friends over family in others.

5:51 - You who believe, do not take the Jews and Christians as ALLIES: they are allies only to each other. Anyone who takes them as an ally becomes one of them; God does not guide such wrong doers.

"They are allies to each other". CLEARLY they are. Refer to Palestine. They (Jews&Christians) are set to eliminate Gaza and West Bank. And not only there, but they are trying to do that all over the world, but it's backfiring. So the point I take from this, is that since Jews and Christians are generally allies to each other, being ally to them is like giving your back to Allah and Islam.

Now kill that shit. It's played out.
And no I do not need to refer to scholars or any extra sources.

[Shakir_Muhammad]

Actually frankiee, I'm done with it. I was never trying to convince Introcluse of anything or make him see things my way. I only had two goals to attain with my participation in this thread. One was To PROVE him wrong in the way he was presenting 3:28 and 5:51 and the other was for the sake of others who are monitoring this thread so they can make up their qwn minds on these issues and to see Introcluse for what he really is.

Someone like him and his characteristics are very easy to expose if you are willing to do the work.

I'll let the others reading this tread decide. I have done my part.

[shakur420]

Damn, didn't realize that Salon.com and the Washington Post were pro-Islam websites. Should probably tell that one Christian dude too, that he's pro-Islamic. He should know that he's providing material support to terrorists. Either way, specific verses are cited in those links. Good to know you're keepin it predictable, ignoring sources, the record and scholarship as it suits you. Settles the question I've been wondering about, whether I should bother hitting you with that Musharraf stuff. Thanks for settin me straight.

Wait, aren't the people you cite as scholars with credentials when it comes to translations and interpretations of the Quran, aren't they pretty pro-Islamic? What the fuck?