Taliban 'Justice'

[Rick Ross 187]

its an inverted USA-first

[shakur420]

Blah, blah, blah.

[shakur420]

I've tried not to bite your style, but I couldn't help myself.

[shakur420]

Yeah, the Taliban are the problem, right. At about the 15 minute mark.
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/2/15/ar...niel_davis

[Rick Ross 187]

taliban are a problem if ur a an afghan woman who thinks it may be nice to go to school, or not cover yourself from head to toe, or listen to music etc

notice the use of the 'a problem' though. there is no 'the problem', there are many problems. Your inverted USA-first is reducing it a single 'the problem', maybe

Taliban oppression of women isn't anything to do with the USA. It doesn't care much about it (or else they wouldn't back the nearly as bad NA), but nor is the USA a direct cause of it. Its a struggle between Afghans. So for you, its not an issue. You outright say, it its something that shouldn't be raised. modern "left wing" parochialism at its finest. sad.

[Younes]

^
Bailey, Taliban would have died out if it wasn't for USA and NATO staying in Afghanistan, the foreign troops right now is what keeps Taliban alive, people are generally not in favor of Taliban, but in comparison to foreign military, they would gladly aid Taliban or fight against NATO themselves.
So Yes, Taliban could be seen as just an extension of the US presence in Afghanistan.

Of course even if Taliban died out the ideas they believe in is still widely shared by common Afghans, but since this is about Taliban, I'd say the reason for Taliban existing right now is USA and NATO, they are a shadow of foreign military presence. Just look at iCasualties, for every year USA and NATO have been there, and for everytime they have increased the number of troops, the casualties have just been rising and rising, now that Canada, France & USA are slowly pulling out, you see how the number of casualties fall.

[1871]

Taliban would have died out if it weren't for the USA in Afghanistan ? Really. Where's the evidence for that? Afghanistan moved into democracy following the defeat of the Soviet Union...? The USA certainly exacerbated the situation with their own terrorismand want to control the situation and - as RAWA have repeatedly pointed out- but -sadly- were the USA to leave tomorrow, the Taliban would still be there and that brand of extremist fundamentalism would still want to exert its control.The USA only made things worse.

[Younes]

^
Taliban wouldn't have been even near as powerful as it is today thanks to the presence of USA. Sentiments are turning in favor for Taliban because of Afghans typical hostility towards aggresive foreigners invading their homeland.

http://www.onislam.net/english/news/asia...liban.html

http://www.infowars.com/the-afghan-peopl...e-taliban/

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...03,00.html

http://buckdogpolitics.blogspot.com/2007...fghan.html

[shakur420]

Once again, bullshit from someone who doesn't like to check the facts. Facts which are confirmed by soldiers, high ranking generals, politicians and now journalists because of an 84 page report from a Lt Col in the U.S. army. Thieves and robbers are a problem in London, I'm sure. Should my country invade and occupy yours to deal with that problem? The logic is transparent. The bottom line is more foreign troops and occupation activity, more violence. Stop talking outta your ass.

[shakur420]

Is this guy suffering from "inverted USA-first" syndrome as well? lol, this former WSJ editor and Assisstant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury? Bullshit.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/15/o...hypocrite/

[1871]

No - just you, dont attempt to flip your world view on to someone else or use it as a way of attempting to substantiate your claim that people are not also aware of atrocities and injustices committed by the Taliban, and if its pointed out or seen that that is somehow an endorsement of western military intervention. It isnt. In fact its the exact opposite !

Quote:Shakur420
Is this guy suffering from "inverted USA-first" syndrome as well? lol, this former WSJ editor and Assisstant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury? Bullshit.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/15/o...hypocrite/

Counterpunch. lol. You talk about the credibility f the press then you quote a pathetic source like 'counterpunch' who regularly misrepresent what the quote. get a life. And the article quotes Libya as being 'ditto' to Iraq. pathetic.

Funny that most Libyans wouldnt agree with that assesment;

http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...ight=Libya
http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...ight=Libya

in fact only organisations which have similar misogynistic fundamentalist 'ideals' to the Taliban but which are being resisted by the majority of Libyans have soured the process there

http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...-for-women



While youre at it check the number of casualties of Muslims killed by Muslims - but then its ok for Muslims to be killed as long as they are being killed by other Muslims right? Your cheap sectarianism and bigotry beggars belief.

When you say 'someone who doesnt like to check the facts' youre obviously talking about yourself. Thanks for your agenda attempts at moraliist gatekeeping and editorial poli-tricking paternalism -
RAWA: 'Bretheren in creed'.

Quote:shakur420

Once again, bullshit from someone who doesn't like to check the facts. Facts which are confirmed by soldiers, high ranking generals, politicians and now journalists because of an 84 page report from a Lt Col in the U.S. army. Thieves and robbers are a problem in London, I'm sure. Should my country invade and occupy yours to deal with that problem? The logic is transparent. The bottom line is more foreign troops and occupation activity, more violence.

You jave a country? lol. Youre so full of hatred for the west I doubt it. Duhhhhh. Dis was wat wuz sed in der thread fred. Check the links watch the videos. MORON. How many more times;

A.G.A.I.N.S.T the invasion/occupation.

Why cant you get that through your thick skull ?




Since the subect of the article is not the Taliban but against the occupation. ^You have presented another strawman argument which ignores previous posts;

Quote:1871
And as if the US invasion hasnt been condemned. And as if anyone has said in this thread that US atrocities were justified.

http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...ice?page=5

Quote: Tragically they didn't listen to the repeated warnings of RAWA about the danger of fundamentalism to the security and stability of the world. And it was only after the New York and Washington attacks that the US woke up and found about the danger of its own created and nurtured Frankenstein(s).

If the US hadn't supported the fundamentalists in Afghanistan during the cold war and if only it paid the least attention to the Afghan fundamentalists' human rights abuses, New York might never had to pay such a huge price and the innocent Afghan people might never had to face such a heavy air strikes with lots of civilian casualties and hundreds of thousands of internal and external displacement.

http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...ice?page=4
Post 36

Quote:1871....colonial interventions have consistently acerbated these problems but they are still there with crimes instigated by the Afghanistan warlords and the Taliban themselves - they are criminals. The US and the NA will find it easy to make deals with them - partners in crime.

http://www.rawa.org/women.php

http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...ice?page=3

And show me where Paul Craig Roberts mentions the Taliban and the crimes of the Taliban .His article is about Western intervention not the Taliban.

Keep on pathetically trying to make the claim that RAWA,anti invasion groups havent condemned the invasion. Once again youre ignoring facts.

The people who commit the following crime are more than mere local street thieves;



Taliban Genocide of Hazara Muslims


Sunday, 01 August 2010 13:57 B. Kisan

Taliban does not commit atrocities against the infidels alone, but also against non-Sunni Muslim sects, whom they consider heretics. The Hazara Shiite Muslims of Afghanistan are one of their major victim...
________________________________________
Taliban recently grabbed headlines by machine gunning 100 unarmed Ahmadi Muslims to death while they were offering namaz in their mosque.
Taliban (extremist Sunni Islamic fanatics of Pakistan and Afghanistan) have a long history of genocide against minorities and those they call heretics.

The Hazaras (shias) of Afghanistan have faced their brutality and genocidal behaviour for a long time:

Genocide Of Hazara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=



Recently thousands of Afghanistani Hazara refugees in Australia demonstrated against this ongoing genocide:

Australian Hazara Demonstration against Invasion of Pashtoon-Kochi-Taliban in Behsud on 30, May 2010.





In this video a mass grass of 170 Hazaras butchered by Taliban is dug up: Taliban Terror - Afghanistan




One such example of this ongoing genocide took place in Bamiyan when the Taliban first took that town. Along with targeting and destroying a smaller Buddha statue (a prelude to bigger things to come), they committed genocide by summarily executing Hazara males above 13 years old:
http://www.hazara.net/taliban/genocide/b...amyan.html

Killing and Arresting of Civilians in Bamyan

(An overview of Human Rights situation in Bamyan from September 1998 to middle of May 1999)
Introduction: Bamyan located in the central highland of Afghanistan called Hazarajat, is populated mostly by Hazaras. Bamyan city was the stronghold of Hizb-Wahdat up to September 1998. On 13 September, Hizb-Wahdat forces were defeated by the Taliban after losing Mazar-e Sharif city. It was reported that Hizb Wahdat left 30 Taliban prisoners, who were held in Bamyan prison, while leaving the city.
During its rule over Hazarajat particularly Bamyan, Hizb-e-Wahdat failed to maintain law and order properly. Their behavior toward Tajiks living in Bamyan center, Kohmard and Saighan district was not fair as hundreds of Tajiks preferred to leave Bamyan center during 1996 and 1997.
Mass Killing during the Military Operation of Taliban
The Taliban first time entered Bamyan city on 13 September 1998 after a brief battle on the Aghrubut pass. On 15-17 September, Taliban launched search in Bamyan villages to find out suspect people. During the search, they arrested and killed any male members of Hazara, aged above thirteen. Arrested people were taken to the desert and then assassinated. Sar Asyabb, Haider Abad and Syed Abad villages were among the villages, which suffered more.
Some people were slaughtered like herd and some bodies were cut to pieces. Houses were burnt or destroyed.
It was reported that dead bodies were scattered everywhere. Five bodies were found in Azhdar, three were behind guardroom of Bamyan airport and several bodies were found among trees behind new Bazaar. Many people were killed from displaced families, who were living around Buddha statues, but following capture of the city, they went to nearby villages.
Reportedly Abdul Wahid and Maysam, two workers of ICRC, who decided not to leave their office were also killed.
Number of killed people per village during the Taliban search between 15th and 17th September 1998, as known by Cooperation Centre of Afghanistan (CCA) reporters, is as follow:
Village Number of Person Killed
Sar-e-Asia 75
Khushkak Chap Dara 11
Taapchi 07
Shibarto 11
Darray Fauladi 37
Dushti Isa Khan and Tajiks 09
Gorvavna and Tai Boti 85
Azhder 05
Jagra Khil 25
Patmasti 15
Surkh Dar 13
Dasht-e-Mulla Khulam 21
Airport area 03
Kallu 28
Bazar 17
Village between Shaikh Ali and Sheebar 150
Total: 512

It was on the second day of the Taliban presence in Bamyan that two groups of non-Afghan Talibs based in Iranian Consulate building and Bamyan Laycee (High School) targeted the small Buddha by Tank and BM 40 Artillery. These shelling caused some damages in the lower part of its body. Then climbing the statue, they dug its head, filled it with explosive stuff and set it off. The explosion defaced small Buddha and created some cracks in its body.

Citing rising death toll, UN urges better protection of Afghan civilians
________________________________________
9 March 2011 - Ordinary Afghans continue to bear the brunt of the ongoing conflict in the country, says a United Nations report released today that points to a 15 per cent rise in the death toll last year and urges greater efforts by all parties to protect civilians. UN News Centre story

There were 2,777 conflict-related civilian deaths in 2010, according to the 2010 Annual Report on the Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflict, prepared by the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

Over the past four years, 8,832 civilians have been killed in the conflict with civilian deaths increasing each year.

“We urge all parties to the armed conflict – the anti-government elements, the Government of Afghanistan and international military forces – to do far more in 2011 to comply with their legal responsibilities to protect civilians,” Georgette Gagnon, head of UNAMA’s Human Rights Unit, told a news conference in Kabul.

“2011 should be a year of escalating civilian protection, not another year of increasing civilian casualties,” she added.

Anti-government elements were linked to 2,080 civilian deaths (75 per cent of all civilian deaths), up 28 per cent from 2009, while pro-government forces were linked to 440 civilian deaths (16 per cent), down 26 per cent from 2009. Nine per cent of civilian deaths in 2010 could not be attributed to any party to the conflict.

Suicide attacks and improvised explosive devices killed the most Afghan civilians in the conflict in 2010, taking 1,141 lives, or 55 per cent of civilian deaths attributed to anti-government elements.

In the most alarming trend, the report finds that 462 civilians were assassinated by anti-government elements, up 105 per cent from 2009. Half of civilian assassinations took place in southern Afghanistan, with a 588 per cent increase in 2010 in Helmand province and a 248 per cent increase in Kandahar province.

“In a year of intensified armed conflict, with a surge of activity by pro-government forces and increased use of improvised explosive devices and assassinations by anti-government elements, Afghan civilians paid the price with their lives in even greater numbers in 2010,” said Ivan Šimonovic, UN Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights.

Among tactics used by pro-government forces, aerial attacks continued to have the highest human cost in 2010, killing 171 civilians or 39 per cent of total civilian deaths linked to pro-government forces.

However, in spite of a significant increase in the use of air assets by pro-government forces in 2010, the proportion of civilian deaths attributed to aerial attacks by pro-government forces fell sharply by 52 per cent compared to 2009.

Among some 25 recommendations put forth by UNAMA and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, they urge anti-government elements to immediately cease targeting civilians and withdraw orders that permit attacks and killings of civilians.

They also recommend that the Government establish a standing, professional body with powers to respond to major incidents of civilian casualties and authority to interact with all interested parties on information sharing, investigations and findings.

In addition, they call on the international military forces to undertake thorough, impartial and transparent investigations into all incidents involving civilian casualties, report promptly on their results and take action against anyone found responsible for human rights violations.

[1871]

(02-15-2012 09:25 PM)Younes Wrote:  ^
Taliban wouldn't have been even near as powerful as it is today thanks to the presence of USA. Sentiments are turning in favor for Taliban because of Afghans typical hostility towards aggresive foreigners invading their homeland.

http://www.onislam.net/english/news/asia...liban.html

http://www.infowars.com/the-afghan-peopl...e-taliban/

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...03,00.html

http://buckdogpolitics.blogspot.com/2007...fghan.html

These articles disprove, not prove your claim about the Taliban 'disappearing' Younes. Its clearly stated that someAfghanistan people turn to the Taliban because they hate the US invasion, not really because they want the Taliban but that they hate the US even more. Thats obvious - and its why intervention was not advised see RAWA video - last one in post 70 - watch it;

{from about 5:00 in particular;)




Through corrupt channels the Taliban recieved funding via the Karzai officials and servants - another reason why the invasion was doomed - again this was obvious from anyone with an understanding of history - so the Taliban would not have faded away - mores the pity. Its convenient for them to oppose elections - even though they were a complete fiasco - because they would lose electorally anyway and they know it - thats why they have to use coercion.

Quote:In the Pashtun strongholds of Afghanistan, it is now perceived to be a good idea for a tribe to start siding with the Taliban, even though members of the tribe may not agree with their harsh medievalism.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...z1n2EcFBri

Not really surprising from a Pashtun stronghold but, yes, its extending to other peoples even outside of the immediate Pashtun loyalties because of the invasion - people will always be allied to any one of;

1) where they are from 2)their ethnicity 3) their religion -

and any one of those will see them casting their lot in with a people because of their opposition to someone else percieved as foriegn. One reason why getting a parochial people like the US to go in was a non starter. Especially with 'tactics' like ; http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagall...2&mggal=12

It was only going to worsen an already bad situation and there were other tactics to use. Note the 'harsh medievalism' reference - they would know it.

Taliban arent to blame for all the problems in Afghanistan obviously - fundamentalism, ignorance, poverty - an ill advised invasion - all coercive and all were and are condemned by many, including RAWA.
The idea of offsetting the reality of the true nature of theTaliban because of the cruelty and medievalism of the US and those invading is percieved by the Afghanistan people themselves -opposed to the occupation- to be a false dichotomy; its why they ask for scholars and engineers instead of soldiers - not something that the military industrial complex are keen on.

RAWA.org, 08.03.2012

(concerning RAWAs view of the occupation - previously pointed out)

Quote;


Afghan women’s freedom from the clutch of fundamentalism, occupation and patriarchy is only possible with their own struggle!



RAWA's statement on the International Women's Day


Afghanistan’s women spent another year under the burden of occupiers, dominance of a Jehadi-Mafia government and terror of the Taliban, the result of which was an increase in poverty, homelessness, immigration, loss of dear ones, domestic violence, rape, self-immolation, a high maternal and infant mortality rate and thousand other miseries.

According to figures from the UN, almost 5000 cases of violence against women were recorded last year, though the actual figure is several time higher than this. The last ten years of US and NATO occupied Afghanistan has been a burning hell for women and young girls who have been raped or gang-raped. According to a report of the European Union there are tens of women in jails who are rape victims but are imprisoned for being a “criminal”; rapists are high-ranked government officials or people related to them and Afghanistan’s corrupt judiciary made up of a number of stone-aged clerics can’t deal with or prosecute them. According to the State of the World’s Mothers 2011 report fifty mothers die every day in Afghanistan while giving birth, something that doesn’t hold the slightest importance in the eyes of the treacherous Afghan government officials, minister and ministry of women’s affairs, decoration pieces in the parliament, NGOs and finally the US and west, that occupied Afghanistan under the pretext of women’s rights.

US and its allies occupied Afghanistan ten years back under the excuse of uprooting terrorism, Al-Qaeda and Taliban. According to data collected by Professor Marc Herold, US took its revenge on Afghan civilians by bombarding and killing about the same number of civilians killed in the September 11th attacks in New York in just the first few months of Afghanistan’s occupation. Most of our people wanted the obliteration of the barbarous and criminal Talib regime but not at the cost of losing their independence. RAWA, just a few days after the start of the US attacks, said in a statement, “The actual issue our people face is the eradication of the plague of Taliban and Al Qaeda -though they (our people) didn't have any part in its cultivation and germination- and the establishment of a government based on democratic values... Our compatriots, therefore, must rise up for a thorough demolition of Taliban and their Osamas…” RAWA’s demand along with the people of Afghanistan’s was that the Taliban dominance be abloshed by the uprisings and struggles of the people of Afghanistan and not by invasion of foreign aggressors.

The US government and NATO who were looking to invade and stay in Afghanistan for their own military, economic and strategic aims, misused the troubles and miseries of our women and have been busy playing a cat and mouse game with the Taliban for the past ten years. After shedding the blood of thousands of innocent women and children, young and old, they have now started another treacherous game of “peace and negotiations” with the Taliban. First they divided the sanguinary Taliban into “moderate“ and “extremist” and have now gone so far that Joe Biden, the vice president of US, announced that “Taliban are not our enemies”! This is true, the Taliban were a project of the US that was run by ISI, they can never be their enemies, they are the deadly enemies of our people, freedom, women, democracy and justice.


A poster of RAWA depicting life under fundamentalism and its solution. (Photo: RAWA.org)

The first victims of a deal with the bloodthirsty Taliban will be the women of our country. By endorsing medieval laws for women, Karzai’s mafia-puppet regime wants to pave the way for association with the Taliban, these lackeys of Pakistan. The most recent example of these inhumane laws is the statement of a stooge government body called the Ulema Council of Afghanistan, which is a copy of the laws of the Taliban era of ignorance and terror. Karzai also shamelessly backed the statement.

The US aggressors proved RAWA’s perpetual claim that this country is always at war with the Afghan people and at peace with criminals. The US’s dark and blood-stained history shows that they have always collaborated with the most treacherous regimes, elements and bodies and conspired for the annihilation of governments and movements of the people. The US doesn’t care about the kind of government that takes power in Afghanistan, what only matters is that the regime should be made up of traitors who they reign, which doesn’t oppose their permanent military bases, allows them to use this land for threatening and controlling Russia, China, Iran, Pakistan and India; allows Afghanistan to become a place where the US and other imperialists use it to suppress every kind of revolutionary movements of the people in the region, and in general a government that protects the interests of the US and its allies. Now it’s of least importance to the US and NATO if that government is headed by a Talib or a Northern Alliance criminal, or some other criminal which oppresses the Afghan people.

Like every puppet ruler, Karzai uses all his power and abilities to serve the aims and policies of his foreign masters, especially the US, so he looks more useful to them and his corrupt regime can stay in power longer. The Traditional Jirga, which was a gathering of spies and traitors who do not have a speck of honour or patriotism, for agreeing to and legalizing the long-term presence of the US and its bases, was another effort in the same matter.

The limitless and boundless costs of the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, the deep economic crisis in the capitalist societies and the huge anti-war, anti-capitalist system movements of the people in the western countries, has forced the US and other imperialists to deceive their people and reduce their military forces in some places and attack other nations instead and allow their plunder. The most recent example we saw was Libya, where the country was destructed and a fundamentalist regime of the kind of the savage Taliban was implemented upon its poor people.

Although the US and NATO talk about the exit of their forces in 2014, this is just a reduction and not a complete withdrawal. The US, now busy signing the agreement of building their permanent bases with their Afghan stooges, will in no way leave Afghanistan due to its important strategic position in Asia, unless they are driven away humiliatingly by our nation like the English and Russians.

After ten years of killing and destruction, the US and NATO leave a government to our people which is occupied by Northern Alliance, Taliban and Gulbuddini criminals and spies of foreign countries at every level; a country that is second in corruption in the world; a country that is the biggest producer of drugs in the world with two million addicts despite the influx of millions of dollars; a country that has half a million internally displaced persons and largest number of refugees in the world; a country whose 7 million out of 27 million people suffer from hunger; a country whose most important posts are occupied by the most infamous and traitorous people like Fahim, Khalili, Atta, Farooq Wardak, Rahim Wardak, Ismail Khan, Anwar-ul-Haq Ahadi, Spanta, Karim Khuram, Hadi Arghandiwal, Dostum and countless other murderers and plunderers.

Despite all the treacheries of the US and west, a handful of stooge intellectuals and so-called analysts without a conscience, tirelessly propagate for the permanent presence of the US through the government media every day, as if the fortune and prosperity of our country is tied to this military agreement, as if peace, stability and comfort of our people and women is only attainable if the US permanent bases exist. These intellectuals who have sold their souls and are blinded by the dollars the US pays them, cannot or do not want to see the extensive damage and crimes the US and its Afghan accomplices have committed. Maybe they will come to at a time when their own loved ones are killed by the ruthless NATO and US soldiers and then urinated upon or their fingers are cut and kept as trophies. They try to act stupid and ignore this important historical lesson that no nation can prosper by linking itself to an alien nation, and that like the US which has a history marked by the blood of countless, unless its people unite and make sacrifices for gaining grand values like democracy and their rights.

The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) on the International Women’s Day announces to all the women in Afghanistan that our freedom from the grasp of foreign occupiers, Northern Alliance mafia, vicious Taliban and other anti-women elements, is only achievable by our unity and struggle. It is impossible that domestic violence, rape, beating and self-immolation among women be ended by seminars or some discussions of the NGOs. It is only attainable by the organization of women of all ethnic backgrounds and tribes into an anti-fundamentalist movement against the occupation.

*

As for quoting 'infowars' - they are so agenda driven they rarely get analysis right.