Slavery and Islam

[Fuzzly Bear]

Why would you enslave a prisoner of war if the whole idea is to abolish slavery?

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Also would there not be a whole supply/demand thing going on as well

[US3RN4M3]

(10-29-2010 12:07 AM)HamishFTW Wrote:  Why would you enslave a prisoner of war if the whole idea is to abolish slavery?

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Also would there not be a whole supply/demand thing going on as well

Just look up the result. That's as simple as it gets, there is no idea of aboloshing, the result is abolishment though.

[Gezus]

that whole little description made no sense... very contradicting.

[Fuzzly Bear]

Why would a just and merciful deity who loves all humankind equally allow humans to be forced into slavery as what is essentially a profit for waging war?

[US3RN4M3]

(10-29-2010 12:19 AM)HamishFTW Wrote:  Why would a just and merciful deity who loves all humankind equally allow humans to be forced into slavery as what is essentially a war for waging war?

Do I really have to explain that? Isn't it obvious, how your just looking for loopholes to pick from? These things are pretty self-explanitory if you have read the Qur'an or any other holy book for that matter, I'll leave it up to you to figure out, since it's not rocket science.

[Fuzzly Bear]

Yea, you do have to explain it. I don't actually get it. I don't care enough to read an entire holy book to pick out one point when it only takes you a matter of minutes to type it out. You're the one wanting to educate. The Caesars are waiting for me.

[US3RN4M3]

(10-29-2010 01:15 AM)HamishFTW Wrote:  Yea, you do have to explain it. I don't actually get it. I don't care enough to read an entire holy book to pick out one point when it only takes you a matter of minutes to type it out. You're the one wanting to educate. The Caesars are waiting for me.

I'm not wanting to educate, I'm wanting to inform as far as I have the ability to and as much as I want to bother to explain. If you want to learn, you pick up a book and read it. Simple as that. If you don't care enough to do that, then I question if you care to do it on any subject for that matter which worries me.

[Fuzzly Bear]

Then inform me as to why slavery is ok in Islam. As far as I can tell it's because non-Muslims are inferior to Muslims and a white man's burden kind of thing, that slaves are better off being slaves than being free. If this is wrong please correct me.

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If I wanted to learn about a more important, relevant subject, such as the history of communism or the first Roman emperors or utilitarianism or aesthetics, then I would of course pick up a book (unfortunately I've only got histories and novels with me right now), but as it stands wondering why slavery is cool with god isn't that big a deal.

[Djoser]

(10-28-2010 11:47 PM)US3RN4M3 Wrote:  

(10-28-2010 11:37 PM)HamishFTW Wrote:  

(10-28-2010 11:05 PM)US3RN4M3 Wrote:  

(10-28-2010 09:59 PM)HamishFTW Wrote:  If Islam eradicated slavery then why is it in the Qur'an?

Well common sense to understand the process eradicated slavery.

Please expand

Well, slavery took place because free people were captured and brought into slavery. This was the main source of slaves, other were prisoners and children of slaves. Islam forbids enslavery of the free and the Sunnah teaches us to free prisoners of war and slaves themselves, yet Allah does not deny us slavery. Slavery in the sense that the slave is treated as any other human being, although the slave is either the child of a slave or a PRISONER OF WAR. This means slavery cuts down, look up slavery in Islam and you will see how slavery disappeared gradually over time because of Islam. I'm a little occupied atm to go deeper or simpler in explanation.

Oh, I get it. Islam didn't ENSLAVE people, but they would already accept/take people who were already slaves, and then free them. In other words, they liberated the slaves and POW's. Therefore, as they took in slaves, and still used them as slaves, slavery would gradually decline and then become abolished. They can still have slaves but can't enslave people.

Did I hit the mark?

[US3RN4M3]

(10-29-2010 02:06 AM)Djoser Wrote:  

(10-28-2010 11:47 PM)US3RN4M3 Wrote:  

(10-28-2010 11:37 PM)HamishFTW Wrote:  

(10-28-2010 11:05 PM)US3RN4M3 Wrote:  

(10-28-2010 09:59 PM)HamishFTW Wrote:  If Islam eradicated slavery then why is it in the Qur'an?

Well common sense to understand the process eradicated slavery.

Please expand

Well, slavery took place because free people were captured and brought into slavery. This was the main source of slaves, other were prisoners and children of slaves. Islam forbids enslavery of the free and the Sunnah teaches us to free prisoners of war and slaves themselves, yet Allah does not deny us slavery. Slavery in the sense that the slave is treated as any other human being, although the slave is either the child of a slave or a PRISONER OF WAR. This means slavery cuts down, look up slavery in Islam and you will see how slavery disappeared gradually over time because of Islam. I'm a little occupied atm to go deeper or simpler in explanation.

Oh, I get it. Islam didn't ENSLAVE people, but they would already accept/take people who were already slaves, and then free them. In other words, they liberated the slaves and POW's. Therefore, as they took in slaves, and still used them as slaves, slavery would gradually decline and then become abolished. They can still have slaves but can't enslave people.

Did I hit the mark?

Indeed. Hashim, he figured it out. Your view of slavery is obviously based on slaves being seen as inferior, this is not the case in Islam as I mentioned before, slaves must be treated as any other human beings. Why slavery is cool with God? When did I say that? I simply said there are distinct differences and forms of slavery in different parts of the world. There was no zong massacres, nor was there any whipping or any other kind of inhuman acts of violence towards slaves. A slave is a human being in Islam, not an animal. A slave should be freed according to Sunnah.

[Younes]

^
That is the Islamic view.... of course we know so called "Muslims" through history haven't followed that, for example the Abbasid and the Zanj rebbelion... biggest Slave uprising in human history...

[shakur420]

(10-28-2010 08:50 PM)Sowster Wrote:  ...why is it that only Muslim countries have women wear the Burka or Hijab? You telling me all them countries from africa to the middle east to europe all carry the same colture?

Why is it that light-skinned, rich people always seem to be behind the biggest massacres and genocides in the world? Are you telling me that the U.S., England, France, Spain, Portugal, etc all carry the same culture....

There is such a thing as "religious culture". Meaning habits, doctrines, traditions, etc. that are connected to a spiritual belief. This does not only exist within ethnic groups. Now, when elements of this "culture" do not conform, in fact are blatantly contradictory to the things mentioned in the central text of said spiritual belief, I don't think it's rational to equate it to the spiritual belief itself, maybe to the so-called adherents of that spiritual belief, but such things cannot be rationally associated with the Quran or Islam.

Oh, and I believe there's another group of women that cover their hair, wear loose-fitting gowns and adhere to strict sexual practices. Their called nuns. People believe nuns when they say that this behavior is voluntary. Why is it that the millions of women who claim the same thing all over the world (and display that voice quite clearly in our "western" countries) are ignored? Why is it that you think they are forced to do so? Oh, yeah, probably because we're talking about the backwards, two-legged beasts. The Arabushim could never have the capacity to treat women with respect, right? Wait, nor could, I guess, the billion or so Muslims in Pakistan, Indonesia, China, India, Russia, UK, Fance, Canada, etc, etc. - regardless of whether we're Arab or not.

Quote:"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion..."

- Quran 2:256



"So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder.

You are not over them a controller."

- Quran 88:22-23



"Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth. So whoever is guided - it is for [the benefit of] his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you are not a manager over them."

- Quran 39:41



"And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"

- Quran 10:99

So tell me now (anybody), how it is that somebody can force somebody to do something (compel them - compulsion - for those of you who didn't pick that up), force something upon them and at the same time call themselves Muslims? Believers? Bring your Imams, your scholars. Bring your parents, your teachers. Bring your so-called Muslim governments. Have them come tell me that they have been given the right by God to tell me or anyone else what to do. Bring the whole Muslim population. All I need is the Quran to prove that they are fascists, they're not Believers.

(10-28-2010 08:50 PM)Sowster Wrote:  I was reffering to the teenage Afghan girl who got get nose cut off by her husband, time magazine.

Here's some info on that. Perfectly honorable to bring up the plight of the victims of our enemies. Absolutely unacceptable, however, to bring up the tens of thousands of lives lost when Clinton bombed the only Sudanese Pharmaceutical plant, right?
http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/10/a..._wars.html
http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/08/o..._will.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...ghan-lives
http://zeroanthropology.net/2010/08/05/i...e-taleban/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_ph...al_factory

(10-28-2010 08:50 PM)Sowster Wrote:  I suppose its a coltural thing, though I always see Muslim countries being the most violant and un-civilized towards almost everything especially sex/marriage.

Right....because forcing someone to cover their face is more barbaric than, say, dropping bombs on areas where children are sleeping? Dropping chemicals on populated areas and calling it "fumigation of drug crops"? Sending recreational drug users into cages where they will be beaten and raped on a daily? Throwing away tons, literally tons, of milk and grain every year when there are starving children around, so that you can control the economy?

The so-called "Muslim countries" that you speak of are more violent and uncivilized than this?

(10-28-2010 10:28 PM)GuerillaRebel Wrote:  Were it not a powerful group of ayrabz who started the slave trade before the europeans and correct me if I'm wrong but, was it not after the introduction of Islam?

I believe slavery was alive and doing quite well before Muhammed came along. And just like today, back then the word "Arab" was not synonymous with "Muslim", no matter what CNN tells you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

Check it.

Quote:"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in God, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives charity; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous."

- Quran 2:177



"We have certainly created man into hardship.

Does he think that never will anyone overcome him?

He says, 'I have spent wealth in abundance.'

Does he think that no one has seen him?

Have We not made for him two eyes?

And a tongue and two lips?

And have shown him the two ways?

But he has not broken through the difficult pass.

And what can make you know what is [breaking through] the difficult pass?

It is the freeing of a slave

Or feeding on a day of severe hunger

An orphan of near relationship

Or a needy person in misery

And then being among those who believed and advised one another to patience and advised one another to compassion.

Those are the companions of the right."

- Quran 4:4-18



"And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, God will enrich them from His bounty, and God is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until God enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of God which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, God is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful."

- Quran 24:32-33



"Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but believers are constantly admonished to treat their slaves well. In case of illness a slave has to be looked after and well cared for. To manumit [free] a slave is highly meritorious; the slave can ransom himself by paying some of the money he has earned while conducting his own business. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam. The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of the women's quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions."

- Islam: An Introduction (Annemarie Schimmel) p.67

Slavery, in old times, can probably be likened to the domestic servants, maids, nannies, etc. of today. It wasn't, probably for the most part, seen as "immoral", but rather like the arguments of southern American slave-owners - we own our workers, you rent them. Who will treat them better? Just like today, it would be pretty reasonable to say that just because you earn a wage to do something doesn't mean that you are treated with respect or dignity, or that you are not forced to do things you don't want to do. In the fairytale land of "Middletown U.S.A.", yes, everyone is happy. In real life, people kill themselves over the jobs they have, feel trapped by the cost of living and sometimes even cut off their fingers just to get insurance money. Hmmm. Anyways, the Quran had a few guidelines that make it clear that slaves were people - equal to their owners - and were essentially a workforce, not "property" per say. Or you could interpret the verses differently, as you should.




Hamish, check the last quote I posted for a little something about the questions you had about slavery, might help you understand what dude was trying to say. Djoser pretty much got it right.

Shakir. God has rewarded me with much more than I deserve, that's for sure. And I've learned that God is always guiding me - lol, even when I'm not listening. Respect.