SYRIA: Danny Abdul Dayem Report

[1871]

ah yes. the 'foreigner' bit. thaty shoots apart ypur credibility as a Canadian.;o;. no no

Quote:Pay close attention to what Syrians want, because proclamations by foreigners - with no credibility, incidentally - mean nothing

Or mine or anyones etc,etc,etc,. I mean I dont disagree that they werent doing their best or that there isnt an element of truth in what they report but it really has to be seen in the contexty of what was actually filmed. Just look at the videos. Contrast it with the report. Theres a lot of course that would not have been seen. Tortures not witnessed, deaths not recorded. I dont think that they deliberately set out to mislead, but that they could have been misled or that the report is certainly limited and questionable when contrasted with eye witness reports.

Quote:Specifically, over 160 monitors from the Arab League – comprised of both allies and mortal enemies of Syria – toured Syria and published a report on January 27th showing that the situation has been mischaracterized……

Quote:….Initially, the report noted general cooperation by the Syrian government,,,,

Quote: The Mission [i.e. the Arab League investigative team] noted that the Government strived to help it succeed in its task and remove any barriers that might stand in its way. The Government also facilitated meetings with all parties. No restrictions were placed on the movement of the Mission and its ability to interview Syrian citizens, both those who opposed the Government and those loyal to it.....

Quote:.....The report noted that the media has greatly exaggerated the amount of violence in Syria:....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=end...BtqDe-MwjA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=end...Dy8oJsU8H4





http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featur...AqwWCHpI18

Quote:The Mission noted that many parties falsely reported that explosions or violence had occurred in several locations. When the observers went to those locations, they found that those reports were unfounded.
The Mission also noted that, according to its teams in the field, the media exaggerated the nature of the incidents and the number of persons killed in incidents and protests in certain towns.

I suppose its where Syrians like Danny come in in news reporting. Likewise, I dont altogether dismiss the Arab report - but its limited. Again, like I mentioned before - its when it was written also. It certainly uner estimated the violence against Syrian civilians which is why it is expecially disappointing that its recommendations are now being rejected by those nations voting against the UN resolution.Theres no question that Assad has been the instigator and aggressor of the violence. You only have to go back and look at how his thugs dealt with legitimate democratic protest;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=end...g84OxdAd74

^ People shot coming out of Mosques after prayer. Its heinous.

---

Quote:...Based on the reports of the field-team leaders and the meeting held on 17 January 2012 with all team leaders, the Mission confirmed that all military vehicles, tanks and heavy weapons had been withdrawn from cities and residential neighbourhoods. Although there are still some security measures in place in the form of earthen berms and barriers in front of important buildings and in squares, they do not affect citizens. It should be noted that the Syrian Minister of Defence, in a meeting with the Head of the Mission that took place on 5 January 2012, affirmed his readiness to accompany the Head of the Mission to all sites and cities designated by the latter and from which the Mission suspects that the military presence had not yet been withdrawn, with a view to issuing field orders and rectifying any violation immediately...

Suspects is right. How many days respite? ^There one day gone the next.Tragic.

5th Feb

[shakur420]

Yeah, they specifically pointed out some reasons why they were limited. Thanks for reading, lol. My "position as a Canadian" has been to let Syrians decide. You shift their call for regime change to foreign intervention. Sorry, you don't do that, you just follow the mainstream media when they do that. So, when you point out that the mission was hindered by the Syrian government, there's no issue with that. But when you present that without all the other stuff, like attacks on the mission by "armed groups", etc., you're being as dishonest as the media. Maybe you didn't know, like I don't know shit, but that's why you read the UN resolutions and mission reports instead of repeating the narrative presented by the BBC.

Don't know why you keep posting videos of dead people and shit, I don't think even the Syrian government is denying that shit. Like I said, they're being pretty mainstream about it. Our citizens get violent, we respond with violence against them. Works like that in all of those 137 countries, lol. People marching in Oakland and NY got pepper sprayed, imagine if they were bombing pipelines, buildings and launching mortar shells.

[1871]

Quote:So, when you point out that the mission was hindered by the Syrian government, there's no issue with that.

?

Yeah sure, merely 'repeating what the mainstream media' says. These videos are merely the 'mainstream media' zzzzzzzzzzz As if youtube videos, and all the other evidence is going to be discounted on that spurious strawman argument. You go for it. Youre obviously insane.

Quote: Shakur420
But when you present that without all the other stuff, like attacks on the mission by "armed groups", etc.,

You mean those 'terrorists' enemies of Assad. Im sure youve heard of secret police. Do you mean Assads 'armed groups. - perhaps those army defectors? Sure they dont defect for a reason.

Quote:Shakur420
Yeah, they specifically pointed out some reasons why they were limited. Thanks for reading, lol. My "position as a Canadian" has been to let Syrians decide.

The Canadian Government voted for the UN resolution. Yes. The Syrians are deciding. Thats why they are also being backed by the UN who agrees they should decide. You stay out of it. Its not your concern. Perhaps you should be consistent on that when referring to any other countries situations out there eg; not your country, let them decide.

Quote:You shift their call for regime change to foreign intervention. Sorry, you don't do that, you just repeat what the mainstream media says
[quote]

um. no - certainly in the way that youre suggesting. obviously youve not been reading the posts . I have been quite clear on what is meant by intervention - what the tUN intervention would be in a role as a peace keeper - and also where support for the opposition is required. If Assad doesnt step down.

[quote]Don't know why you keep posting videos of dead people and shit, I don't think even the Syrian government is denying that shit.

'not being aware of the reality on the ground....'

Quote: Like I said, they're being pretty mainstream about it.

yeah sure they are. Perhaps your 'mainstream' has a certain definition?

Quote:Shakur420

[quote]
Our citizens get violent, we respond with violence against them

Yes Im sure thats what Assad would have said. Those nasty violent civillians.

Quote:Shakur420

Works like that in all of those 137 countries, lol. People marching in Oakland and NY got pepper sprayed, imagine if they were bombing pipelines, buildings and launching mortar shells.

Even though it indicates the brutality of whats being encountered, theres a big difference in extremes between being pepper srprayed and this;




Im sure they were 'launching mortar shells' and the brave troops of Assad had to kill those terrorists. And further,if youre against people being pepper sprayed and condemn such brutalities you also condemn this

right?

[shakur420]

^Good job reading the mission report. Evidence points to an opposition mortar shell killing a French journalist. Citizens are calling for no foreign intervention, but "Arab moderation" instead. I don't know where I said the videos were mainstream media, I asked why you keep posting them to counter me when I quote the UN resolution and Arab League mission report. Don't understand what you mean by there's a "difference". There's a reason why only pepper spray, batons and rubber bullets were used on Occupy protestors, because they weren't armed. Surely you don't believe your country would act any differently than Syria were we to pick up arms against our administrations. We've got enough WTO, G20 and Republican conventions to evaluate. lol

[shakur420]

Oh, not to mention the many reports of violence against the government and civilians by armed opposition groups. Assad is saying that he's responding to that (as are mindless Syrian propagandists). My point is just that we do the same, those countries who supposedly condemn Assad. HAHA, like I said, you're too much. Stick to your fantasies son, where the Guardian is "free press" while people who cite multilateral reports are "middle class imperialists". I'm sure the narrative from the BBC is impartial and not whatsoever "establishment backed". Yeah, stick to that script.

[1871]

Quote:Shakur420
Don't understand what you mean by there's a "difference".

^Thats a classic.


Keep on misrepresention what was meant by intervention. Ive already spelled it out.

An opposition mortar killing a French journalist. This hasnt anything to do with Assads forces smashing down democracy in Syria so that people take up arms by any chance, No. Couldnt be.

Heres also what the Socilaist web page says;

Quote:Arab League calls for UN intervention in Syria

By Niall Green
13 February 2012

The Arab League met in Cairo Sunday. They called on the United Nations Security Council to send “peacekeepers” to Syria to intervene in escalating fighting between the Syrian government and opposition forces led by the US-backed Syrian National Council (SNC).

A delegation from the SNC attended the meeting at the League’s headquarters, in an effort to secure full diplomatic recognition.

The Arab League’s meeting comes as heavy fighting continues in the Syrian city of Homs, where US-backed opposition groups have battled for months with the army and security forces of Syrian President Bashar Assad.

The US-backed armed opposition is acting increasingly openly to use methods of assassination and terrorism to destabilize the Assad regime. Syrian state media reported that Brigadier General Issa al-Kholi, a senior military physician, was shot dead by three gunmen outside his home in the Syrian capital Saturday.

This follows a terrorist bombing against Syrian security forces in Aleppo, a city that has seen few protests against Assad. (See, “Bomb blasts in Aleppo, Syria kill 28”)

The leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, praised US-backed forces fighting in the spreading civil war in Syria. In a recently released video message, al-Zawahiri called the government in Damascus a “cancerous regime that suffocated the free people of Syria.” He advised Syrian opposition forces to seek aid from other Islamists.

Comments by officials at the Arab League meeting in Cairo made clear that a major topic of the meeting was preparing for international military intervention in Syria to support the SNC. “We have been very reassured of everyone’s agendas,” SNC spokesman Basma Kadmani told reporters about the Cairo meeting. “It is a priority to deal with the Syria issue.”

Arab League Secretary General Nabil al-Arabi told reporters that the League has discussed making an open call for international “peacekeepers” to be sent to Syria.

Dominated by Saudi Arabia and its allies in the Persian Gulf sheikdoms, the Arab League seeks the overthrow of Assad and his Ba’ath Party regime. The tone of Sunday’s discussions in Cairo had already been set at a meeting of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) last week, an occasion for Saudi and Qatari officials to continue their campaign against the Assad government.

The GCC circulated a draft resolution at the United Nations General Assembly last week, similar to the one vetoed by Russia and China in the Security Council, demanding the resignation of Assad and the formation of an interim government that includes the foreign-backed Syrian opposition groups.

The head of the Arab League’s observer mission to Syria resigned on Sunday. Mohammed al-Dabi, a Sudanese general, criticized the decision by Saudi Arabia and Qatar to call an early halt to the mission, which ran for twenty-three days from late-December until January. The Gulf sheikdoms and the imperialist powers hoped the mission would find evidence of atrocities by Assad and thus provide fuel for the imperialist campaign for military intervention in Syria.

Instead, to the dismay of the Gulf sheikdoms and the Western powers, the observers produced evidence that the Assad regime was facing a well-armed, foreign-backed movement, and that opposition reports of casualties were frequently exaggerated. (See, “Report of Arab League mission to Syria contradicts Western propaganda”)

The maneuvers of the Arab League and the United States against Syria are a virtual replay of their role in the NATO-led war against Libya last year. At that time, the Arab leaders lined up with the Western efforts to topple the Libyan regime and replace it with one based on the anti-Gaddafi “rebels” of the National Transitional Council (NTC).

That this “humanitarian” war in Libya led to a humanitarian disaster—with an estimated 50,000 people killed, and thousands more maimed or turned in refugees—is of no concern to the NATO powers or their Arab allies. Factional fighting continues in Libya between NTC rivals, while torture and other human rights abuses are rife.

Washington and its allies seek the overthrow of Assad to install a stooge regime in Damascus and subordinate Syria even more directly to the dictates of Western imperialism, including breaking Assad’s ties to Iran. This is part of a broader strategy to bring about regime-change in Tehran, which Washington has long viewed as a major obstacle to efforts to dominate the energy-rich regions of the Persian Gulf and the Caspian Basin.

This also involves Washington in an escalating confrontation with Russia and China, which vetoed last week’s UN Security Council resolution aiming to provide a fig leaf for war against Syria. The Kremlin in particular has responded to the US-led effort to topple Assad by shipping arms to Syria, deploying an aircraft carrier battle group off the Syrian coast, and sending high-profile diplomatic missions to Damascus.

The SNC and its military wing, the Free Syrian Army, are based in Turkey and backed by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United States and the European powers. Israeli security web site DEBKAfile has reported that British and Qatari Special Forces are training Free Syrian Army fighters in urban warfare at camps in Turkey and providing “tactical advice” to opposition fighters inside the city of Homs.

There are reports of Sunni Islamist fighters from Libya and other countries coming into Syria to join with local Sunni militants opposed to Assad’s Ba’athist regime, which is nominally secular but comprised largely of members of the Alawite branch of Islam.

The fighting in Syria is spreading to neighboring Lebanon. On Saturday, Sunni Muslims clashed with Alawites in the city of Tripoli. The Associated Press reported gunfire and rocket-propelled grenade fire during the clashes, leading to two deaths at least 12 injuries.

The working class in Syria and internationally must oppose the machinations of the Arab League and the US and other imperialist powers in Syria. The only social force that can sweep away the regime in Damascus on a progressive basis is the Syrian proletariat, fighting for a socialist program in alliance with the rural poor and their fellow workers internationally against imperialism..

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/feb201...-f13.shtml

Which I disagree with (except its analysis of the working class struggle).And as if a working class movement would NOT seek the overthrow of Assad. This means that they support Assad? If these opposition groups had no cause to oppose Assad then there would be no working class resistance to him, so much is obvious. Its obvious also that there is working clas resistance to him. Do they really believe that Russia or China will arm civilians opposed to Assad????!! People are going to get arms where they can. Jesus - thats obvious. But its typical of the kind of skewed thinking that will see any backing of resistance to Assad as automatically de facto imperialist machinations and therefore civilians being murdered and shot are stooges of the US.
Totally crazy. The only point they are correct on is with reference to the US. If anyone believes nations will stand by when Assad and his cronies reject UN moves they are dreaming. Assad has merely escalated the conflict Like I said - his days are numbered. Im posting this as an example of how confused the unthinking 'anti west' argument gets when it creates the argument that because the west opposes it that those opposing tyranny are the surrogate west. Nonsense. They then look the other way or politicise to such an extent that they do not see the immediate issue at hand - which is about protecting the lives of civilians being bombed and shelled by Assads forces.

Quote:Shakur420

Surely you don't believe your country would act any differently than Syria were we to pick up arms against our administrations. We've got enough WTO, G20 and Republican conventions to evaluate. lol

Sure I wouldnt find it a laughing matter and hope that the world would condemn it. Id be mighty pissed off if a few nations voted against a UN resolution to protect civilians - and I certainly wouldnt act as an apologist for a dictator doing that shit.

[Rebel Assault]

http://nsnbc.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/fr...y-enemies/

Quote:Friends of Syria – With such good Friends, who needs any Enemies.
Posted on February 25, 2012

Tomorrow the People of Syria are meant to vote in a referendum for a new Constitution, that enshrines plurality, democracy, human rights, gender equality, protection of ethnic and religious minorities, and a Syria that identifies itself as an Arab State within a pan-Arab nation. Four new political parties have been registered and will be taking part in the next coming election. The constitution was drafted under the widest possible co-operation with progressive Syrian reformists. The greatest obstacle for the most far reaching reforms any Arab people and nation have witnessed since the end of colonialist rule, is not internal opposition against it. 40.000 foreign mercenary forces massed at the Syrian border in Jordan, near Al-Mafriq. 18.000 of them are under the leadership of Libyan NATO ally, and known Al Qaeda terrorist Abdelhakim Belhadj. Turkish Intelligence has opened an Operations Room and Recruitment Center in Amman, Jordan. NATO Special Forces are operating inside Syria, including German Special Operations Teams. Their task: To secure that tomorrows referendum will be dominated by bloodshed, terror, fighting and chaos, to secure that the “Friends of Syria” have plausible arguments for a military attack on Syria under the pretext of establishing “Secure Zones, Humanitarian Corridors” latest after the first week or March.

Constructive Syrian reformists are outraged about the fact that their chance for reforms are being sabotaged. The reason for the militant urgency by NATO´s political and military leadership, the GCC, and Israel ? A successful referendum, and the endorsement of the new Constitution would be disastrous for anyone who plans to pry Syria out of the Russian, Iranian, Syrian, Lebanese alliance, and for those within the so called “Syrian Opposition” who are eager to make peace with Israel at any cost, including that of solidarity with Palestine, and that of the Syrians from the Golan Highs who have been suffering from Israeli occupation since 1973. Compared with the worthiness and national pride of the Syrian government, the “real” opposition that can´t wait for the situation to calm down so a referendum and elections can be held, the tantrums and hysteria of the so called “Friends of Syria is eye opening, to say the least.

Loony Tunes. Yesterday representatives of about 70 countries and organizations were meeting in Tunis. The delegates were greeted welcome by new Tunisian President Rafik Abdessalem. The overt agenda was the coordination of international efforts to deliver humanitarian relief, and to bring about political change in Syria. Representatives at the meeting of the “Friends of Syria” composed of an unholy alliance that included Yemen, The Vatican, and the USA, unanimously called on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to end the violence so humanitarian aid could be delivered.

If it was not for the fact that people were murdered and maimed by the conflict between armed insurgents and Syrian security forces on a daily basis, one could eventually smile about the irony. A freshly elected President of Yemen, whose most noble qualification for lecturing Syrians about pluralism and democracy is the fact the he was the sole presidential candidate, but one that was endorsed by the USA, of course. One is tempted to ask, if the Holy Father in Rome has given his blessings too ?

The Moroccan President Marzouki, from a nation that has heavy handedly suppressed the South Saharan demand for independence and self determination is criticizing Russia and China for upholding international law as enshrined in the charter of the United Nations, while encouraging the abuse of the Security Council to establish bases of operations for NATO Insurgents in Syria under the pretext of Humanitarian Corridors. Marzouki, calling Russia and China “stubborn and obstinate“ somewhat reminds about the cartoon character Iznogood who throws tantrums when his sneaky underhanded attempts to assassinate the Caliph to become the Caliph fail, again, and again. So who is obstinate ?!

Arab league Chairman of the leagues Council of Ministers, Hamad bin Muhammad al Thani, of Qatar, of course, called for the formation of an Arab and International Force. To secure humanitarian aid corridors; naturally. How else would he traffic his 40.000 mercenaries that are stuck in Jordan, and are beginning to be quite so irritating for both the Jordanian government and it´s people, safely into positions from where they can attack Syrian military forces ? Al-Thani´s eagerness for guns and butter became so obviously revealing that other delegates had to moderate his statements by voicing that not “all” really preferred a military solution. The unanimous call for “Assad” to immediately allow the humanitarian deliveries however was the giveaway. Remember, after tomorrows terrorizing the Syrian people at the referendum, the US Special Op´s boys want to see a military assault latest by 7 March.

It´s always interesting to watch Hillary Clinton. In yet another Hilarious show of the psychological effects of long term Cocaine addiction, such as delusions of grandeur, unpredictable, aggressive mood, and other, similar attributes that make a perfect US secretary of State, she announced that an additional USD 10 Million of funding to help Syrians who have fled the fighting would be granted.One might wonder if those 10 Million are being laundered through her Rose Law Firm in Littlerock, Arcansas, like all the funny Cocaine money.As German journalist Christoph Hörstel said it in an interview on RT, “with such friends, who would need any enemies“.

Russian PM and presidential hopeful, Vladimir Putin announced already on Friday that Moscow won´t change it´s stance on Syria. The 10 million Dollar question for Syrians is: Will they succeed in giving their friends a crushing defeat by voting for the new referendum tomorrow anyways; or will the coalition of Iznogood al-Thani, Hilarious Hillary and her Mena Arcansas Cocaine Crime Cartel et al. will be successful in telling the world that the murders and terror that will be unleashed by their minions, the butcher of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, Abdelhakim Belhadj, the Muslim Brothers who have nothing better in mind with their new won power than to sale Egypt to the IMF at the lowest possible price, and the NATO´s Special OP´s boys, is the result of the ruthless oppression of the people of Syria by Bashar Al-Assad.

Christof Lehmann

[shakur420]

Yeah, I'm acting like an appologist for a dictator, HAHA, read the thread. What I am doing is showing that the narrative you're copying from mainstream media is false. The UN resolution and the mission report clearly show that they are being misrepresented in the mainstream. A familiar trick, known to everyone who's familiar with the Iran-nuclear thing. Turning people's wish to internally overthrow their government into calls for foreign forces and pretending that articles talking about Hamas "seizing control" of Gaza, or not recognizing Israel, are "free press" is the level of credibility being brought to the table. Coincidentally, the "free press" fails to mention that the Republican party has never recognized Canada as a state and that this reality has never caused a problem for our relations.

I'm an apologist cause I'm exposing the lies? HAHA, am I an apologist when I support populations in armed struggles against their governments? Or did you miss the few times I mentioned that? Am I insane when I read the UN resolution and quote from it? Or is that only because I'm pointing out that the narrative you're presenting, the same one as the mainstream, is false, absolutely counter to the resolution? We can look at the UN resolution, or we can look at articles which claim that some guy at an Arab League-initiated meeting says the Arab League - you know, the same group that still hasn't published their own mission's report - is talking about intervention. lol, I'm insane? I'm quoting the resolution backed by 137 countries which condemns violence from armed groups in Syria and rejects intervention of any kind. Yeah? I'm the insane apologist, lol. Maybe the "free press" will get around to dropping the truth once Syria's destroyed and everyone goes "we made a mistake..." ...again.

lol, Marwan Bishara has an op-ed/interview in Al Jazeera today, you should see what he has to say about the party line of imperialist powers on Syria. I can't say I agree with him particularly on everything, but for the most part, he's pretty moderate. On Palestine, at least. I'm sure Saree Makdisi would have some similar stuff to say on Syria (check out his twitter, lol). He's pretty extremist on Palestine compared to the mainstream, which is in reality pretty moderate and centrist. Would they be insane too, if they quoted from the UN resolution and Arab League mission report? HAHA, would they be insane apologists if they point out the obvious bias of the mainstream media and commentators, the pure hypocrisy of benevolent proclaimations by criminal governments? Because they do, all the time, on the topic of the Middle East and Palestine. The same points I've made throughout this thread. I'd be surprised if they presented a different narrative on Syria, lol.

The reason it's relevant to recognize that Assad is doing what every other country would do, is not to "support" the motherfucker, it's to understand why the spotlight is shining where it is and how the "free press" operates. If you don't recognize that and want to flip it like I'm an "apologist" for a dictator, go ahead, do that. But when you call me insane, lol, that really makes me laugh. Especially coming from someone who was recently trying to explain how "free" the mainstream media is. HAHA, I guess Orwell was insane too, yeah, that sounds about right.

We can ignore the facts, the reason why atrocities in Serbia/Kosovo were stepped up and the situation became worse. We can ignore reports, warnings and statements by government/military officials, monitors and NGOs, relying instead on the narrative of the "free press". Whatever you say man, whatever you say.

[1871]

Quote:Shakur420
Yeah, I'm acting like an appologist for a dictator, HAHA, read the thread. What I am doing is showing that the narrative you're copying from mainstream media is false.

Ah yes. I wondered when another insane ‘its the media!!!’ rant would come up.
Nice try. But people can see that these videos are not false;







Keep on saying they are mainstream media, but everyone can see for themselves

Quote:The UN resolution and the mission report clearly show that they are being misrepresented in the mainstream.

Try switching it on to ‘the mainstream’. These videos come from so many sources people can see right through your lies. I sippose all those demonstartors were actors right? More lies and dishonest (mis) representation from you. As though these videos are ‘the mainstream’

Quote: A familiar trick, known to everyone who's familiar with the Iran-nuclear thing. Turning people's wish to internally overthrow their government into calls for foreign forces

Again more lies and misrepresentation. No one said anything about allowing or approving of US military intervention. Of anyone reading this thread wants to see what a liar you are and how full of deceit and disinfo just go to post 23 WHICH I SPECIFICALLY REFERRED TO> PLAY IT and listen to what he says. And in the same post where my own and the UN position was made clear.’ ‘Foreign forces’ hahaha – it states quite clearly about no ‘foreign forces’ at 1:10 on the video posted and ‘intervention’ wasn’t even proposed in the context in which you arer now attempting to spin it. You really are a disingenuous character. The UN suggested a resolution to the conflict. I suggested that if this were not accepted, my italics just to point out to you – again - and my opinion,my italics;

Quote:1871
The call is for Assad to step down. Intervention???? So what. Its already been called for. If Assad does not stop shelling civilians. If the UN has to intervene in a peace keeping role so be it - and that is what is meant by UN intervention.

However as Assad seems to be hell bent on shooting dead civilians and bombing civilian areas then the Free Syrian Army will get arms and be supported. Hence my comment;

Quote:1871
But if 'intervention' also means arming the Free Syrian Army if Assad continues to kill civilians. So be it. I have no qualms about seeing Assad going the same way as Gadaffi if he doesnt step down. It will only be inevitable.

However there are Syrians who have called for a protected zone.
The French Foreign Minister, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, the Free Syrian Army and the Syrian National Council, an umbrella group of oppositionists, have all advocated some form of humanitarian intervention in Syria.
Either way Assads days are numbered.
I mean, you even say;

Quote: ^No, I mean it's not a condemnation of Assad or the Syrian government at all, despite what BBC wants you to think.

Which is a total lie. Condemnation of the Assad regime has occurred from the UN also and been reported in the media
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=21785

Quote:Shakur420
I'm an apologist cause I'm exposing the lies?

Too funny. Perhaps in your own mind son. You couldn’t tell the truth from a lie. I mean there were 137 nations condemning Assad for his shooting of civilians. Round the world condemnations from so many countries and countless individuals and eyewitnesses concerning Assads actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featur...97rm5YCPLk

Quote:Shakur420
I'm sure I could find many videos showing peaceful demonstrations without incident - just like we seen with Libya. As far as the whole world condemning them, lol, don't know about that

Yeah sure – just like there were in Ulster - you moron.

Quote: Shakur420
HAHA, am I an apologist when I support populations in armed struggles against their governments?

In your imagination sure. I mean you even fail to read posts properly. How can you be trusted to get anything else right? As Introcluse pointed out on another thread – youre completely disingenuous – but we already know this by now since misrepresenting what people didn’t say an spinning it into what you believe they said is a common tactic of yours – and its the tactic of a liar. Its been pointed out several times on this thread what the UN resolution meant and that ‘intervention’ meant humanitarian intervention (even then, my opinion - if necessary ie; if Assad did not stop shelling civilians)

Quote:Shakur 420
The reason it's relevant to recognize that Assad is doing what every other country would do, is not to "support" the motherfucker, it's to understand why the spotlight is shining where it is and how the "free press" operates.

The point you fail to recognise is that every country in the world is not doing these things and has not carried out such attacks recently on their civilian populations. Again – another straight out lie ! I don’t see downtown populations in Toronto or Vancouver getting shelled like Homs was shelled. For fucks sake get real. Youre an idiot.

Quote:Shakur420
If you don't recognize that and want to flip it like I'm an "apologist" for a dictator, go ahead, do that. But when you call me insane, lol, that really makes me laugh.

Must be the laughter of a madman for sure. You compare people getting pepper sprayed to people being blown to pieces. I mean for fucks sake.

Quote: Especially coming from someone who was recently trying to explain how "free" the mainstream media is. HAHA, I guess Orwell was insane too, yeah, that sounds about right.

Dont flatter yourself. Youre no Orwell.

[shakur420]

^Who said I was? I'm simply repeating his analysis of the "free press". You're the one calling it insane. lol

Again with the videos, have no idea what the point is. No one's denying the atrocities. When did I say they were mainstream media, can you point out the post so I can edit? Must've been a typo, I apologize for the misunderstanding, HAHA. Assad and some dumbasses try to justify the atrocities by saying that there's an armed, ongoing threat to national security, uncontroversially what any other state would do/say in a similar situation. We don't even have to extrapolate, we have numerous, current and historical examples to qualify that. There's no question of the bullshit surrounding arguments like that, especially with me since I don't accept the right of a state to attack any of it's citizens - or civilians anywhere - under any circumstances. A position considered "extreme" and "naive" by those "moderate" states like Turkey, U.S., Saudia Arabia.

lol, the problem is, when states who go around gassing civilians and crops, occupying countries and dropping bombs on cities, crushing rebellions and funding dictators, when they do that shit, it's justified, when the weak, official enemies do much less, it's a crime against humanity. Now you may not adopt this utter hypocrisy, but your presenting arguments from people who do. Those arguments can be dismissed.

The narrative you're associating with the videos is false. It's the same narrative in the mainstream press and elite political circles. It contradicts the UN resolution and the Arab League mission report, which by the way, claims to also describe a widely held position of the Syrian population aligned or supportive of the opposition - no intervention of any kind, only "Arab moderation". The resolution and mission report have been misrepresented and lied about, as well as the hypocrisy of many states involved in condemning Syria.

Like, are proclamations from Saudi Arabia about R2P supposed to be taken seriously a few months after they sent soldiers into Bahrain to brutaly crush peaceful demonstrations? HAHA, I guess when you swallow the party line and become a parrot for established power, sure it makes sense. If the wife beater is a black drug dealer, you throw the book at him and slap him when he talks about safer schools. If it's a white, rich exec or politician, well then, his proclaimations of "protecting children" are taken seriously, while he beats his wife and rapes his daughter. No big deal, we can ignore his hypocrisy. I mean, those are the facts, clearly missing from any of the sources you've dropped, but more importantly, the way you characterize "world" opinion, Syrian citizens and the UN resolution. Coincidence that it echoes the narrative of the mainstream press? Somehow, I'm not convinced.

Love it how I'm so dishonest though, lol, it's one of my passions, lying. I love dropping credible, official sources like links to UN resolutions and then blatantly lying about what's in there. There's no way I could be honest, it's not for me. You know, like dropping Al Jazeera articles that explain to you what's in a UN resolution, without quoting it. That type of honesty is not my cup of tea.

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my italics here;

Quote:Again with the videos, have no idea what the point is. No one's denying the atrocities. When did I say they were mainstream media, can you point out the post so I can edit? Must've been a typo, I apologize for the misunderstanding, HAHA. Assad and some dumbasses try to justify the atrocities by saying that there's an armed, ongoing threat to national security, uncontroversially what any other state would do/say in a similar situation. We don't even have to extrapolate, we have numerous, current and historical examples to qualify that. There's no question of the bullshit surrounding arguments like that, especially with me since I don't accept the right of a state to attack any of it's citizens - or civilians anywhere - under any circumstances. A position considered "extreme" and "naive" by those "moderate" states like Turkey, U.S., Saudia Arabia.

Incorrect. States export terrorism certainly, they also enage in political repression. There isnt one example- not one- of democratic western states shelling their own domestic civilian areas in the past fifty years as Assad has done at Hama and Homs. In Europe the last breakout of violence of that nature was at Kosovo.

Quote:lol, the problem is, when states who go around gassing civilians and crops, occupying countries and dropping bombs on cities, crushing rebellions and funding dictators, when they do that shit, it's justified, when the weak, official enemies do much less, it's a crime against humanity. Now you may not adopt this utter hypocrisy, but your presenting arguments from people who do. Those arguments can be dismissed.

do 'much less' ????

this is an example of how your syncretic arguments are flawed when you merely get stuck on the official line.

Assad was not 'weak' - his attack on Homs and massacres of civilians are a crime against humanity. Condemn trhe US cvrimes against humanity by all means, but its useless to try and construct an argument saying that such condemnations are invalidated because of US crimes. The facts speak for themselves with regard to Syria. These condemnations come from the UN - thats the international community. Your argument doesnt even have logic - its mere cynicism. If they international community did not condemn the actions no doubt you would condemn them for not condemning such actions !

As for your claim that there were no calls for any intervention;

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/03/world/...syria.html

Of course these arguments cannot be dismissed - whats happening in Syria can be seen by everyone. It is condemned by the international community - those you categotrise as 'foreigners'. Since my last post on this thread there hasnt been an intervention and political leaders have pretty much said why - so much for your spurious claim of it being the official line.

NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said the Western alliance had no intention of intervening in Syria even in the event of a U.N. mandate to protect civilians, and urged Middle East countries to find a way to end the spiraling violence.

Rasmussen told Reuters Friday he also rejected the possibility of providing logistical support for proposed “humanitarian corridors” to ferry relief to towns and cities bearing the brunt of President Bashar al-Assad’s crackdown on pro-democracy protesters.

“We have no intention whatsoever to intervene in Syria,” Rasmussen said in an interview, during a visit to mark the 60th anniversary of Turkey joining the alliance.

on military intervention;

“No, I don’t think so because Syria is also a different society, it is much more complicated ethnically, politically, religiously. That’s why I do believe that a regional solution should be found,” he said


Using your flawed logic no one would condemn such actions since they would be similarly culpable of human rights violations.

UN human rights reports and 'western' human rights organisations have condemned Bahrain and Saudi human rights abuses. I suppose if you heap in human rights watch and Amnesty International in with military forces and 'foreigners' and 'westerners' Im sure you can tar them all with the same brush.

You have to flip it on to individual nations when it becomes inconvenient to consider that the UN has repeatedly condemned both Bahrain and the Saudis in numerous human rights reports.

In fact the Bahrain opposition similarly called for UN intervention with regard to domestic repression and Saudi assistance of that repression.

Quote:Shakur420
The narrative you're associating with the videos is false. It's the same narrative in the mainstream press and elite political circles. It contradicts the UN resolution and the Arab League mission report, which by the way, claims to also describe a widely held position of the Syrian population aligned or supportive of the opposition - no intervention of any kind, only "Arab moderation". The resolution and mission report have been misrepresented and lied about, as well as the hypocrisy of many states involved in condemning Syria.

You mean the Saudis are not Arab? 'Arab moderation' is interventionist - the Saudis have armed the opposition. Also your comment - or rather LIE of 'no intervention of any kind' is totally false.

[shakur420]

(02-26-2012 10:35 PM)shakur420 Wrote:  lol, the problem is, when states who go around gassing civilians and crops, occupying countries and dropping bombs on cities, crushing rebellions and funding dictators, when they do that shit, it's justified, when the weak, official enemies do much less, it's a crime against humanity. Now you may not adopt this utter hypocrisy, but your presenting arguments from people who do. Those arguments can be dismissed.