R.E to anarchy, national socialisim,comunisim,capatalism and democracy.

[kcoll]

capitalism is an economic system based on the privet ownership of industry,property(land) and production .
This allows individuals to start businesses and acquire personal wealth through profit.as well as providing employment.Note that the worker does not get a fair share
of profit .The general idea of capitalism being what good for bushiness is good for the economy and the country as a whole.
The capitalist system requires their to be free market conditions :little government involvement (except to uphold property/ownership laws) , that companies self regulate,
that they can sell goods /trade at any price (the gov cant put set prices on things) and that the government owns no monopolies over any industry.
Capitalism is based on the exploitation of labor for personal wealth.This is more noticeable and evident in poorer countrys.
When individuals or corporations are able to acquire massive privet wealth and monopolies in it gives rise to potential manipulation of the government and the state.An example
of this is what American president Dwight D. Eisenhower termed the military industrial complex.This is beyond the scope of this thread but ill leave what he had to say about it so you get
an idea.
''A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse,
every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery
of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.'' Dwight D. Eisenhower

Democracy actually comes from the Greek word demokratia, a direct form of democracy used in some parts of Greece around 500bc.Bacicaly all citizens could vote on political polices but the way it played out is that most the population was bared from voting.
example, women were not allowed to vote.
Our form of democracy is called representive. i.e. we elect polotitions to represent us in government.The problem with the current voting system however (in UK at least)is that it is not truly representative of the peoples choise.In Britain you vote for
your regional M.P. not the actual political party and the party with the most mps win the election.The reason this is flawed is that a party can have more m.ps but fewer overall votes.This is due to the fact different regions have different sized populations so
for example (these are not actual figures) an mp could need 2000 votes to be elected in somewhere like the isle of Lewis where as an mp in east renfrewshire would need 40000 votes to get elected.
Their is also the issue of 'vote buying' where political partys offer spacial privileges to certain regions.A recent and blatant example of this was David Cameron deal with ulster unionists that they would be exempt from budget cuts.
The foundations of our democracy are;that all classes are considered equal in the eyes of the law.That the courts/police/judicial system follow due process.That every citizen has freedom of speech/expression.That their is freedom of press and an even distribution
of power.i.e opposing political partys.

Anarchy is as Plato put it mob rule or rule by the masses(an abcense of government),under the ideology that with out government common sense and moral responsibility would prevail.The fact is that their is no guarantee that this would happen and my on opinion is that
moral ethics will not prevail at least for some people then that gives rise to the problem of a mob rule society judicial system.A legal system with out due process is wide open to abuse.
That said Plato did argue that if a person commits a crime that society as a whole should be punished under the belief that if society does not produce moral people then society has done some thing wrong. How many of you know the thug in T.H.U.G life, stands for The Hate U Gave?

National socialism is Socialist nationalism (btw this is a response to any one who said Hitler was not a socialist)is a mix of left wing polices with nationalistic views,while believing that rights only apply to a specific ethnic group.This ideology is fundamentally racist however national socialists
do seek to improve the life of the said ethnic group.For example Hitters grand plan was to unite what he perceived as greater Germany in the 3rd rich (3rd empire) where the Aryans would be an elite race served by what he preserved to be inferior races.This is the nature of national socialism,their
is a need for a collective identity/political views and culture and a strong view that their race is superior.
National socialism treads a fine line to all out facism.Fasism being national socialism with a totalitarian style of government exercising compleat control over its citizens under the ideology that the state is of primary importance and succeeds the rights of the individual.Enemys of the state (could be political opponents)
can not be tolerated and are often brutally dealt with dissuade other people following them.
Another factor of the Fascist or totalitarian state is the extreme emphasis and build up of military forces for the purposes of controlling the population /oppressed ethnic gropes and to expand and exploit inferior nations.
History has shown us that national socialism leads to genocide,war concentration/work camps and mass state executions.

Pure communism is the idea of common ownership, the abolishment of social classes and privet ownership.Karl Marx noted that this would be the final stage of society and that society would have to evolve to this point .Also that such a society would have to relied on extremely advanced technology that would
eliminate the need for human labor and provide an abundance of goods/foodect.He knew this was a long way of so suggested that the money system be based on labor.that price paid for labor should be the same regardless of what that labor was (effort might be a beter word than labor here).
basically he says that labor is the only thing of value.like gold is worthless while still in its ore underground.It takes labor/effort to mine/process the gold and make it valuable.

Stalinism/Maoism ;Authoritative totalitarian comunisim.Both systems had compleat state takeover/ control of industry,media and press.Both under went massive industrialization and militarisation.both implemented population control/oppression of certain groups and unfair legal processes.The state in both cases used their
own citizens for forced labor and executed their own citizens in vast numbers.this is the key difference between Fascist national socialism and stalinisim.this is why some Russian citizens viewed the nazis as liberators when Germany invaded the USSR.(kinda ironic how some people cant tell one megamaniac from another)For Stalin the issue was more about
class and saw him self ,as even many Russians/Georgians today still see him, as a revolutionary.(not that i agree with that) For Hitler the issue was more to do with race and white supremacy/eugenic ideaology)
This thread is about my personal understanding of political ideologys and i tryed to keep it as unbiased as i could.comment or critisize but please use common sense and rational thought.this thread went on longer than i intended so kudus if you actually read it all.

[Dumbat]

Pretty good summary, I'll just add one more:

The Middle (Centre) Path:

When a government attempts to take the best of both socialism and capitalism to create a better civilisation.

The main problem for advocates is deciding which aspects are beneficial, and without a strong uncorruptable government it can easily be 'hijacked' over a period of time by proponants of the other systems.


I don't know which one I'd most like, it seems to change on an almost daily basis. One day maybe we will evolve to the point where we can run a more utopian system (like the Venus Project) - but that seems unlikely when humans are involved, not in our lifetimes at least.

[kcoll]

(05-27-2010 11:43 AM)Dumbat Wrote:  Pretty good summary, I'll just add one more:

The Middle (Centre) Path:

When a government attempts to take the best of both socialism and capitalism to create a better civilisation.

The main problem for advocates is deciding which aspects are beneficial, and without a strong uncorruptable government it can easily be 'hijacked' over a period of time by proponants of the other systems.


I don't know which one I'd most like, it seems to change on an almost daily basis. One day maybe we will evolve to the point where we can run a more utopian system (like the Venus Project) - but that seems unlikely when humans are involved, not in our lifetimes at least.

china has both capatalist and communist elements to it.their goverment maintains that it is working in the greater good.are the chinesse(as a nation) beter off under this type of goverment that their previous political system-impearialism.china has ammased great wealth in a relitivly short period of time and went from a fudal society to the most industrialised country in the space of like 50 years. dunno but chinas politions seem to have more long term policys/ views.not just short time personal political ambitions.where ever these policys are right or wrong though is another question.just throwin out some ideas.

[El Mono]

Hitler was still not a socialist.

---

http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-cl...y-cook.htm

^ A more in depth look at Democracy and it's roots.

[kcoll]

(05-27-2010 01:27 PM)El Mono Wrote:  Hitler was still not a socialist.

---

http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-cl...y-cook.htm

^ A more in depth look at Democracy and it's roots.

yes correct hitler was a national socialist.national socialism is not the same as pure 'enlighted' socialism (pure comunisim). socialism an ideaology with many branches.communisim is a branch of socialism.capatalism can also be joined with socialism, im not that shure how but some one explained it to me before but i for get the resoning of it.(ill get back on it)

[Rick Ross 187]

The attempt at a distinction between "Communism" and "Stalinism/Maoism" is false. "Stalinism/Maoism" Communism put into practice. As Marx said, Communism is not some abstract idea, but the actual results of the class struggle - to view Communism is to abandon Marxism. The societies that existed in Mao's and Stalin's time were the actual results of Chinese and Russian class struggle and the seizing of state power by the working class.

[ClichéGuevara]

(05-27-2010 02:19 PM)kcoll Wrote:  

(05-27-2010 01:27 PM)El Mono Wrote:  Hitler was still not a socialist.

---

http://www.marxists.org/archive/james-cl...y-cook.htm

^ A more in depth look at Democracy and it's roots.

yes correct hitler was a national socialist.national socialism is not the same as pure 'enlighted' socialism (pure comunisim). socialism an ideaology with many branches.communisim is a branch of socialism.capatalism can also be joined with socialism, im not that shure how but some one explained it to me before but i for get the resoning of it.(ill get back on it)

i just thought of this ryhme while relpyin to this.

their is more to this world than we percieve
i wake up from the dream and look behind the sceens
the earth falls away at the seams . i do not like what i see
and as the people who were born un free weep-
- becase they are hungry and week ,ruthlessly exploited by the elite.
i want to go back to sleep so i dont need to feel the guilt of my greed
wish i hadent looked behind the sceens
seen the world fall apart at the seams
i wanna go back to my dream whare all is fine.... or so it seems

donno if any one will understand that might just make sense to me cos im high

Just because Nazi stands for National Socialism doesn't make Hitler a Socialist. Most things he did or used were stolen ideas. The Swastika is a Hindu symbol, he claimed to be religious when it was beneficial to him, the Nazi salute is rather similar to the revolutionary salute. As explained in this thread http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...-Socialism Socialism was used as it was a common word at the time. How can a party that denounced Communism and persecuted Communists be Socialist?

It's like the Labour party, they used to represent the working class but during the mid 90s their policies became right wing. Their name is meaningless to their policies.

[kcoll]

Quote:Just because Nazi stands for National Socialism doesn't make Hitler a Socialist. Most things he did or used were stolen ideas. The Swastika is a Hindu symbol, he claimed to be religious when it was beneficial to him, the Nazi salute is rather similar to the revolutionary salute. As explained in this thread http://www.immortaltechnique.co.uk/Threa...-Socialism Socialism was used as it was a common word at the time. How can a party that denounced Communism and persecuted Communists be Socialist?

It's like the Labour party, they used to represent the working class but during the mid 90s their policies became right wing. Their name is meaningless to their policies.

Wordweb defines National Socialism as:
“a form of Socialism featuring racism and expansionism”.The BNP follows kinda the same ideaology-they want to improve Britain but only for the whites.
i guese that all rulers have made their own brand of democracy , socialism, comunisim to suit their own agenda. then used philosophical/scientific works to justify it.hitler persecuted different classes because in nazi germany their could be only one nation under one ideology.mein kempf (my stuggle) gives all of hitlers socialist and racist views.the reson how hitler and the nazi party could view them self as progressive and socialist is that they viewed the people that they were persecuting as inferior as sub human.this ideaology is centeral to national socialist beleifs. socialism is a wide political theory that has many branches.mussulini also wrote on this.
like most religions say that killing people is wrong but has been used to justify killing masses of people.the rational again is based on that different beliefs are inferior.in the bible it says thou shal not kill but a christian who murders can still be a christion,gettit.
hitler said many contradictions but that was because we was an expert manipulator .tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.the nazi movement shares many characteristics of a cult (the nazi were actualy the cult of vril but thats another story)
i know the swatstika is an ancient symbol it originaly represented the sun and was used by the soviets before to represent their socialist movement.somthing to so with a swatstika being made from two of the letter s.
nazi germany was no more and no less socialis than the USSR (union of soviet socialist republics) both contryies /leaders percieved their to be a greater good behind their actions .that the ends justifyed the means.both country planed on rewritting history. in retrospect nazi germany and ussr can be seen as a mass social expertiment.in example how many jews willingly went to the camps because they wanted to be with their own kind?originaly they were told they were being relocated.'work brings freedom' (auswitch main gate) is a reminder of how subtle but effective control can be.all political systems and belifes are a means to control the general population.
As for the labor party they get nearly all there funding from the trade unions in britian.although they have right wing policies they still improved working conditions.i.e raised minium wage and introduced tax credits among other things.

[Fuzzly Bear]

I read something recently about how Hitler's 'socialism' enabled a fantastic war machine whilst effectively keeping the status quo.

[noobd]

(05-27-2010 06:09 AM)kcoll Wrote:  Anarchy is as Plato put it mob rule or rule by the masses(an abcense of government),under the ideology that with out government common sense and moral responsibility would prevail.The fact is that their is no guarantee that this would happen and my on opinion is that
moral ethics will not prevail at least for some people then that gives rise to the problem of a mob rule society judicial system.A legal system with out due process is wide open to abuse.
That said Plato did argue that if a person commits a crime that society as a whole should be punished under the belief that if society does not produce moral people then society has done some thing wrong. How many of you know the thug in T.H.U.G life, stands for The Hate U Gave?
[u]

Anarchy is simply "without government" - which you covered.

As you also kind of covered, Anarchy is based upon the free market, voluntarism as well as morality.

A few nitpicks:

You mention that there is no guarantee that morality, voluntarism, etc would prevail. Sure, that is valid to claim. But has the current "system" prevailed? I think not.

Quote:A legal system without due process is wide open to abuse

Who said Anarchy would have a legal system without due process? Is our legal system not abused by the government that controls it? ie: non-violent crimes (personal drug use, possession of vegetation, etc)

Not sure where you were going with the whole THUG thing.

To keep this thread general - if you wish to respond to anarchy specifically, it'd be nice if you posted it in my Anarchy thread.

[ClichéGuevara]

I didn't even notice the Thug Life thing, it's The Hate U Give Little Infants Fucks Everybody. I don't really see how that's relevant, I digress. Hitler wasn't a Socialist

[kcoll]

(05-28-2010 10:15 PM)noobd Wrote:  

(05-27-2010 06:09 AM)kcoll Wrote:  Anarchy is as Plato put it mob rule or rule by the masses(an abcense of government),under the ideology that with out government common sense and moral responsibility would prevail.The fact is that their is no guarantee that this would happen and my on opinion is that
moral ethics will not prevail at least for some people then that gives rise to the problem of a mob rule society judicial system.A legal system with out due process is wide open to abuse.
That said Plato did argue that if a person commits a crime that society as a whole should be punished under the belief that if society does not produce moral people then society has done some thing wrong. How many of you know the thug in T.H.U.G life, stands for The Hate U Gave?
[u]

Anarchy is simply "without government" - which you covered.

As you also kind of covered, Anarchy is based upon the free market, voluntarism as well as morality.

A few nitpicks:

You mention that there is no guarantee that morality, voluntarism, etc would prevail. Sure, that is valid to claim. But has the current "system" prevailed? I think not.

Quote:A legal system without due process is wide open to abuse

Who said Anarchy would have a legal system without due process? Is our legal system not abused by the government that controls it? ie: non-violent crimes (personal drug use, possession of vegetation, etc)

Not sure where you were going with the whole THUG thing.

To keep this thread general - if you wish to respond to anarchy specifically, it'd be nice if you posted it in my Anarchy thread.

i agree with your statements that there is faults in our society .this was supposed to be a disscucion about political theology.these are not belifes that i say are right or wrong or personal agree with .just my current understandind of political systems/ideaology.
where i was trying to go with the thug life thing was that crime is a reflection and failing of our present society.the son of sam a.k.a david Berkowitz came up with his own personal theory that there is a mirror image to our society.i want go into deail but he says some interesting stuff if you can forget that he was a socialpathic murderer. thank for all responses thu.