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**Younes** · 11-18-2010, 02:41 PM

MS, remember Muslim, is not the only name we are known by, Mu'min is another term that seems to be more frequently used than Muslim in the Qur'an. And Mu'min which means "Believer" have been used ages before Islam appeared. This is for you 2 Introclose.

**Introcluse** · 11-18-2010, 08:21 PM

Regardless of what flaws you pull out from the Quran, many Muslims will use the same worn out generic cliche's. It's funny because even before you replied I was having a discussion with a member from here about how Muslims pull out the same worn tired cliché's and you gave me a great example ! so I must thank you to giving further credibility to my point.

Oh I see, you feel the disgust partly because the word "Kafir" or "Kuffar" is the only Arabic word in the whole sentence and we deliberately choose to use it over the "Disbeliever" which would go with rest of the English?

Not just me, millions of people. It doesn't matter what language it's used in. the condescending tone and vile aggresion & hatred is still prevalent.

Tell me how many times you have seen the news reporters say:

"Police have foiled a plot of a man who is thought to have had links with a Strugglist group."

Instead of:

"Police have foiled a plot of a man who is thought to have had links with a Jihadist group."

yes many media outlets have that same superiority complex towards Muslims that Muslims have towards non-Muslims. Certain media outlets don't regard Muslims as human or equal but many Muslims have that same mentality towards Non-Muslims. Religions and the media are great at creating separatist identities and segregating people, both are as bad as each other. Like I said before, If one person or group behaves a certain way, that does not justify or excuse you to stoop to their level. No one is born a Religion, we are all born human, always remember that.

You see to devilishly put it on me, it's so damn blindingly easy to make someone else prove it all you have to do is reject that it exists.

doesnt make any sense or have any relevance. Please tell tell me where those words first popped up, not a paragraph about how Islam was finalised.

then I suggest that you go speak with a Imam or Scholar that may know more than on Islam and Islam related subjects

lol why would would go to speak to a subjective, impartial mercenary who who gives me a filtered version of Islam ? It appears that you've many hanging around too many of those, hence why your so deeply indoctrinated. Tell me how many people have you spoken to who have researched and studied Islam thoroughly who aren't Muslim ? oh yeh I forgot they'd tell you truthful facts. To tell me to speak to an Islamic Scholar about Islam is equivalent to telling someone to speak to a Zionist about the policies of the Israel state.

they do it for a living

you yourself have pointed out their motives for working in the religion industry ....wasn't religion supposed to be about 'spiritual endearment' or is it really about 'profit margins'. I suggest YOU go and read up on the 'Religion Industry' and how the Worlds Major Religions make more money then the GDP of most of the Worlds Countries.

^Actually, anybody in Arabia at the time who was a monotheist would've been described as "Muslim" at the time. Before as well as after Muhammed, as "Muslim" was the Arabic word for "believer in one God", at the time, in the dialect of the region. As far as I know.

LMAO, some people will resort to making things up to make others think they're right.

I'll finish on this point. Why can't most Muslims just be honest and admit they think they're lot are better then everyone else ?

**rotten.dog** · 11-18-2010, 08:45 PM

(11-18-2010 02:41 PM)IslamicRevolutionary Wrote: MS, remember Muslim, is not the only name we are known by, Mu'min is another term that seems to be more frequently used than Muslim in the Qur'an. And Mu'min which means "Believer" have been used ages before Islam appeared. This is for you 2 Introclose.

No bro, i disagree with that. Not every Muslim can be a Mu'min but every Mu'min can be a Muslim, but even that is not necessary, a Mu'min is everybody who fears god and lives by the common rules, not lying, respecting everybody etc.

So a Jew, Christian, Hindu etc. all can be a Mu'min, but their are certain things that only Muslims acknowledge, thats why a Mu'min is most likely a Muslim.

**shakur420** · 11-19-2010, 05:20 AM

(11-18-2010 08:21 PM)Introcluse Wrote: ^Actually, anybody in Arabia at the time who was a monotheist would've been described as "Muslim" at the time. Before as well as after Muhammed, as "Muslim" was the Arabic word for "believer in one God", at the time, in the dialect of the region. As far as I know.

LMAO, some people will resort to making things up to make others think they're right.

Some sources describing that the Arabic word "Muslim" is usually understood to mean things like "Submitter (to God)", "Believer (in God)", "One who seeks oneness or wholeness (with God)", etc.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muslim
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/muslim
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/d...rch=muslim
http://www.dictionary.net/muslim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Muslim

Here's a little something that goes through some history. In the 3rd chapter (Arabia Before Islam), under the heading "The State of Religion in Pre-Islamic Arabia" you find something interesting under section 7:

Quote:"7. Monotheists There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham. The members of the families of Muhammad, the future prophet, and Ali ibn Abi Talib, the future caliph, and most members of their clan – the Banu Hashim – belonged to this group.

- A Restatement of the History of Islam and Muslims CE 570 to 661, 1996 (Sayed Ali Asgher Razwy)

It's safe to say that there were Monotheists in the area before Muhammed came along. A simple google search for something like "Monotheist in Arabia before Islam" would yield you more material to confirm or refute this to a point that would generally be acceptable in scholarship. As already established, the word "Muslim" refers to those who have a Monotheist spirituality. I could connect the dots, but that would take all the fun out of it, no?

**Younes** · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2010 11:15 AM by Younes.)

(11-18-2010 08:45 PM)Sick Wrote: No bro, i disagree with that. Not every Muslim can be a Mu'min but every Mu'min can be a Muslim, but even that is not necessary, a Mu'min is everybody who fears god and lives by the common rules, not lying, respecting everybody etc.

So a Jew, Christian, Hindu etc. all can be a Mu'min, but their are certain things that only Muslims acknowledge, thats why a Mu'min is most likely a Muslim.

No no, Mu'min means beliver in Islam, the articles of faith and so on, that is how the word is used within the Quran.

**Introcluse** · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2010 06:07 PM by Introcluse.)

Yes many words have more then one meaning. However Mohammed used 'Muslim' in the context of those who adhered to Islam

It's safe to say that there were Monotheists in the area before Muhammed came along

Monotheism simply refers to a religion which belives in one god, it's not not specific to Islam or even one particular type of god. IMHO if you go by the Monotheistic religions interpretation of god, there could only be one god as god would get jealous if we created other gods to obey.

As you pointed out, they were Montheist religions prevelant before Islam ie. Christianity, Judaism. Mohammed himself was very familiar with these religions and knew many Jews & Christians even before his 'prophethood' began. Probably the reason for the many similarities between the Quran and literature from their religious scriptures. Many people actually see it as plagiarism

I got a question for you. It is said that Mohammed was unable to read or write as he was not 'educated', yet he had the intelligence, ability and memory to store, retain, and recall 500 pages of religious text ?

**Younes** · 11-19-2010, 06:40 PM

(11-19-2010 06:06 PM)Introcluse Wrote: I got a question for you. It is said that Mohammed was unable to read or write as he was not 'educated', yet he had the intelligence, ability and memory to store, retain, and recall 500 pages of religious text ?

This was before the revalation was given upon him, word is after he received the Revelation god blessed with him with knowledge.

**Introcluse** · 11-20-2010, 12:02 AM

ok so if god gave him that knowledge, could he not have used divine intervention to also teach him how to read and write?

**Younes** · 11-20-2010, 12:07 AM

^
And he did so... I have seen a copy of the letter he sent to Heraclius...

**shakur420** · 11-20-2010, 05:18 PM

(11-20-2010 12:02 AM)Introcluse Wrote: ok so if god gave him that knowledge, could he not have used divine intervention to also teach him how to read and write?

You have a brain, right? And yet you insist on asking us questions. If you want to learn, you can go check out the Quran, use google, etc. Could you not use your brain to figure out the answers to the questions on your own? I can take the day off work today, that I'm able to do. It doesn't mean that I should do it, necessarily. Are you so knowledgeable in the workings of the universe, space and time, that you are claiming to know what is best for any given situation? Your logic is self serving at the moment, as it doesn't seem to apply to you, only to those you are trying to demonize.

The arrogance to say "if God exists, then why aren't we taught everything and given everything?" is so pathetic it's not even funny. As if you shouldn't have to put in work to become knowledgeable, or to earn your successes.

By the way, I noticed that you didn't concede that I was being truthful about the word "Muslim". You just started talking some bullshit about Monotheism. You're really not even going to acknowledge the falsehoods you're trying to spew? Even when you get so undeniably put in your place? It's hard to take anything from you seriously after seeing your childish behavior. You're obviously interested in shitting on people's spirituality, regardless of facts or the truth. You are no way interested in learning and sharing on the subject of Islam, that much is clear from this thread, so on that note, I'm out. If you have anything else to say to me, send me a PM, or post in another thread.

**Introcluse** · (This post was last modified: 11-20-2010 07:17 PM by Introcluse.)

You have a brain, right? And yet you insist on asking us questions.

If I went around proudly giving myself a label which attributes me to a certain ideology, first I would be fully knowledgeable on the whole ideology and secondly I would be very willingly ask any questions about it. If it really is THE TRUTH why do you feel so awkward answering questions about it ? Truth nevers fear inquistion.

I haven't come in here claiming certainty like you have with your views. so it's upon you to justify your views. Muslims claim their god could make anything happen without any effort by just saying 'be', so why couldn't he just create the book out of thin air in a split second, instead of the long process of delivering it over a period of 22 years ?