On Politics, Occupy, the Tea Party and the Global Financial Crisis

[Asshole]

marx was very adamant that democracy was the only route for socialism so you're contradicting yourself there. and marxist decisions are made within unions. only the decisions that would affect the whole nation are made centrally.

also democracy with two or more classes necessitates a state.

[shakur420]

lol, Marx could say the word "Democracy" a million times, yet he insisted that people making decisions for themselves would never succeed. See his critique of Bakunin. I wouldn't say some bullshit like Marx was contradicting himself, I would just be blunt and say that he didn't believe in Democracy no matter how many times he said it. His insistence on elite decision making for the broad public belies his claims that he believed in Democracy. Just like when Obama talks about things like freedom, democracy, justice, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to smell the bullshit.

[Asshole]

(08-18-2012 04:41 AM)shakur420 Wrote:  lol, Marx could say the word "Democracy" a million times, yet he insisted that people making decisions for themselves would never succeed. See his critique of Bakunin. I wouldn't say some bullshit like Marx was contradicting himself, I would just be blunt and say that he didn't believe in Democracy no matter how many times he said it. His insistence on elite decision making for the broad public belies his claims that he believed in Democracy. Just like when Obama talks about things like freedom, democracy, justice, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to smell the bullshit.

show me where he talks about oligarchical control or whatever else you are implying

[shakur420]

Quote:"...The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat..."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wor...o/ch02.htm

...the proletariat, of course, being "pushed forward" by "the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties", you know, the ones that "have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding", lol, regardless of whether the large majority of workers actually accept this enlightened class as their political, social and economic chauffeurs. It's funny that marxists claim to represent workers, the working class, yet the working class does not claim that they are represented by the marxists. Sounds like "bourgeois democracy" to me, lol. You really should read some management stuff on how to manage companies, how to pick managers, CEOs, supervisors and shit. lol, it's practically identical.

Quote:"...The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class..."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wor...o/ch02.htm

Again, there's no debate here that Marx thought the most political enlightened and aware - or "conscience" - members of the working class would be the ones in the driver's seat, making decisions for others. This is brutally clear when we get to the fate of decisions about production, to be centralized "in the hands of the State", or rather, in the hands of the "proletariat organised as the ruling class". Surely, Marx didn't envision all workers to have a hand in this ruling class, as this is what Bakunin argued with him about.

Quote:"...When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character..."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wor...o/ch02.htm

lol, and just in case it wasn't absolutely clear that when the state is wrestled from the "bourgeois", it will be in the hands of a concentrated elite, Marx and Engels are sure to remind us that later, at some unspecified time, you know, when the stars align just right, production will be "concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation". This is not the intention Marx has when he talks of taking control of the state (the "non-political state" or whatever the fuck it is), this comes after. You'll have to excuse those of us who don't believe in the campaign promises of politicians or revolutionary vanguards, lol.

One great example of Marx's contempt for Democracy and how hollow his proclamations about Democracy were, is when he pretends to address Bakunin's breakdown of top down management. It's fucking hilarious. Marx doesn't answer one single point with any substance or direct explanation. He comes close, where he brings up the example of trade unions and pretends that while he believes the enlightened, elite managers of the dictatorship of the proletariat "have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding" because they are "the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others", that he envisions a horizontal, democratic process that could be demonstrated by the example of a trade union. HAHA, I wonder, how is it that the "most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties" and the whole body of the workers are sometimes different, and sometimes the same?
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wor...-notes.htm