Objectivism, what do you think?

[zanj uhuru]

If you guys are so adamant on the destruction of welfare . please look at the condition of eastern Europe today .

[YaelTheGreat]

(08-26-2011 03:33 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  i'm saying that i see no fault in pimping a system that is designed to benefit the bourgeois, their tax breaks and wars. i get that the welfare and defense budgets are separated, but considering that the welfare recipients pay taxes while people like GE don't, i don't see any offense

Thats a selfish and shitty, as well as lazy and incompetant attitude.

[Asshole]

since we are talking about moral reasoning, where is your logic? i've presented mine

[YaelTheGreat]

(08-26-2011 03:33 AM)zanj uhuru Wrote:  If you guys are so adamant on the destruction of welfare . please look at the condition of eastern Europe today .

I'm more adament about the morals you stand by that would lead you to abuse the system meant to help those in real need. I'd rather see the US crumble under its own hyprocrisy and see a social structure where everyone works for the common good. But, I guess you could say that.

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(08-26-2011 03:40 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  since we are talking about moral reasoning, where is your logic? i've presented mine

My logic is simple: stealing from those who have nothing is wrong.

[Petrenkovich]

Quote:"...people should hold themselves to a higher moral value than they now do, at least in america. I also think that her ideals about work ethic are important because to me it seems that people rather me on welfare than actual work any more. And when people do work they do a half- assed job. "

Quote:"...a lot of the problems we face now are due to a lack of purpose and confidence in people."

How on earth can somebody measure up to such simple-minded assumptions, in the middle of a neoliberal crisis?

Jeez, we are having a huge economic downfall, with millions of unemployed, people experiencing attacks on their living standards and social achievements, and then you blame the source of the problems on the MORALS of society's workers?? It's so completely straight out of the blue, that it's hard to even know where to begin.

The massive, fictive wealth generated by corporate shareholders, and the inner contradictions of the capitalist system itself, causing a bubble burst and huge deficits by the, now lay as a huge burden on the working classes around the entire globe. As if they are lazy, for actually working their guts out (in America, some people even have 2-3 jobs and can barely get food on their tables) through a time of economic boom with an absolute minimal benefit from it and then being totally chained to the consequences of the crisis and condemned to pay for it.

And why do we talk about "welfare bums" as the leechers of society, when we have a whole class of priviledged people, a bourgeoisie that sits on the vast majority of society's value, generated by a majority of labourers that are only paid a portion of their produced value, benefitting on the exploitation and misfortune of society's lower layers, profiteering on catastrophees, overpricing people from satisfying their needs and exploiting the *ressources* of the entire globe.

I'd suggest a proper analysis, assuming on the basis of actual, concrete events, that provides a macro-orientated perspective, instead of all that idealistic, moral-fixated, diffuse moth:
http://www.marxist.com/another-day-another-crisis.htm
...though it might frighten, ujsch.

[zanj uhuru]

(08-26-2011 03:40 AM)YaelTheGreat Wrote:  

(08-26-2011 03:33 AM)zanj uhuru Wrote:  If you guys are so adamant on the destruction of welfare . please look at the condition of eastern Europe today .

I'm more adament about the morals you stand by that would lead you to abuse the system meant to help those in real need. I'd rather see the US crumble under its own hyprocrisy and see a social structure where everyone works for the common good. But, I guess you could say that.

---

(08-26-2011 03:40 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  since we are talking about moral reasoning, where is your logic? i've presented mine

My logic is simple: stealing from those who have nothing is wrong.

HAVE NOTHING ? you call owning 75 percent of the world wealth nothing mabye you should tell the wall street bankers or other rich capitalist that ''stealing from those who have nothing is wrong.''

[Asshole]

if you are forced into the system, then why not do what you can to survive in such conditions?

[YaelTheGreat]

(08-26-2011 03:42 AM)Petrenkovich Wrote:  

Quote:"...people should hold themselves to a higher moral value than they now do, at least in america. I also think that her ideals about work ethic are important because to me it seems that people rather me on welfare than actual work any more. And when people do work they do a half- assed job. "

Quote:"...a lot of the problems we face now are due to a lack of purpose and confidence in people."

How on earth can somebody measure up to such simple-minded assumptions, in the middle of a neoliberal crisis?

Jeez, we are having a huge economic downfall, with millions of unemployed, people experiencing attacks on their living standards and social achievements, and then you blame the source of the problems on the MORALS of society's workers?? It's so completely straight out of the blue, that it's hard to even know where to begin.

The massive, fictive wealth generated by corporate shareholders, and the inner contradictions of the capitalist system itself, causing a bubble burst and huge deficits by the, now lay as a huge burden on the working classes around the entire globe. As if they are lazy, for actually working their guts out (in America, some people even have 2-3 jobs and can barely get food on their tables) through a time of economic boom with an absolute minimal benefit from it and then being totally chained to the consequences of the crisis and condemned to pay for it.

And why do we talk about "welfare bums" as the leechers of society, when we have a whole class of priviledged people, a bourgeoisie that sits on the vast majority of society's value, generated by a majority of labourers that are only paid a portion of their produced value, benefitting on the exploitation and misfortune of society's lower layers, profiteering on catastrophees, overpricing people from satisfying their needs and exploiting the *ressources* of the entire globe.

I'd suggest a proper analysis, assuming on the basis of actual, concrete events, that provides a macro-orientated perspective, instead of all that idealistic, moral-fixated, diffuse moth:
http://www.marxist.com/another-day-another-crisis.htm
...though it might frighten, ujsch.

This is a discussion about philosophy, not the economic and political struggles that are blantantly obvious. We are discussing the simple issues of right and wrong.

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(08-26-2011 03:45 AM)zanj uhuru Wrote:  

(08-26-2011 03:40 AM)YaelTheGreat Wrote:  

(08-26-2011 03:33 AM)zanj uhuru Wrote:  If you guys are so adamant on the destruction of welfare . please look at the condition of eastern Europe today .

I'm more adament about the morals you stand by that would lead you to abuse the system meant to help those in real need. I'd rather see the US crumble under its own hyprocrisy and see a social structure where everyone works for the common good. But, I guess you could say that.

---

(08-26-2011 03:40 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  since we are talking about moral reasoning, where is your logic? i've presented mine

My logic is simple: stealing from those who have nothing is wrong.

HAVE NOTHING ? you call owning 75 percent of the world wealth nothing mabye you should tell the wall street bankers or other rich capitalist that ''stealing from those who have nothing is wrong.''

No, I'm talking about the people who NEED WELFARE and your selfish ways of "fighting the system by being on welfare" will take away from those who may actually need it.

---

(08-26-2011 03:45 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  if you are forced into the system, then why not do what you can to survive in such conditions?

If you are educated to know how fucked up the system is, and WHY its fucked up, you use your intelligence to help those stuck in the system, not abuse it.

[Asshole]

seeing as the bottom 80% own about 10% of the economy, i say the bottom 8% can't be called immoral.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesameric...ealth.html

not to mention the pyramid of consumerism. those on top manufacture what only some of those on bottom can afford, then fix the system so that the culture, the laws, and society to obsess about the product. is it a surprise when they find holes in a system of greed to satisfy what has been imposed on them since they could watch tv? or go to mcdonalds? or look at the gerber brand name on their diaper?

[zanj uhuru]

Define which poor people need welfare and who doesn't and if the argument holds up i will bow before you in submission.

[YaelTheGreat]

(08-26-2011 03:57 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  seeing as the bottom 80% own about 10% of the economy, i say the bottom 8% can't be called immoral.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesameric...ealth.html

not to mention the pyramid of consumerism. those on top manufacture what only some of those on bottom can afford, then fix the system so that the culture, the laws, and society to obsess about the product. is it a surprise when they find holes in a system of greed to satisfy what has been imposed on them since they could watch tv? or go to mcdonalds? or look at the gerber brand name on their diaper?

I agree totally.
What we were talking about is how you feel its right to recieve welfare when you can live without it, while others may despretly need it but may not get it because of your selfishness.

[Asshole]

well yael we could either ask them to lead a revolution with absolutely no education or culture of liberation or understand what makes the urban youth do the same thing their role models do.