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**YaelTheGreat** · 08-26-2011, 02:01 AM

(08-26-2011 01:44 AM)TheMythOfSisyphus Wrote: You see with me, Objectivism is hit and miss with me. To an extant I agree with her reasoning and I have to admit her argument is fairly compelling. Personally, I think I actually lean more towards Objectivism to an extent, as opposed to say, Subjectivism. I believe that as far as morality is concerned, there are absolute moral laws that do not change from person to person. When I say laws I mean laws not like laws like in the US constitution that suggest to you what is wrong, but like the law of gravity, where this thing is morally wrong or right, regardless of if you are black or white, rich or poor, etc. Now with all of this being said, the thing about Objectivism that usually causes me to shy away from calling myself an Objectivist is the whole idea of "I am who and what is important and I should not concern myself with others". I have not read any of Ayn Rand's works yet, although I am familiar with her philosophy, so I can not say for sure what exactly her Objectivism is, but I believe it is a very sound argument to explain morality and the human condition. Side note, I don't think Objectivism is a cult. :3

I agree, people should hold themselves to a higher moral value than they now do, at least in america. I also think that her ideals about work ethic are important because to me it seems that people rather me on welfare than actual work any more. And when people do work they do a half- assed job.

**TheMythOfSisyphus** · 08-26-2011, 02:13 AM

Awww shit son, the old "People on welfare leeching off society" argument. I'm not quite sure I agree with that HOWEVER, I think you are dead on about people holding themselves to a higher standard. I was having this discussion today as a matter of fact in my National Government class. The Declaration of Independence was based off the idea of our natural rights. Well, what are natural rights? Well they would be defined by the people who wrote the DOI as your God given rights, the bible being the source of the highest moral authority of the time. Now how the US turned out is irrelevant, the point is that using a higher moral standard, they were able to come up with what was at the time probably the closest thing to absolute freedom for the people (if you weren't black or native american). Of course, they were slave owning hypocrites, but that doesn't mean that using a higher moral authority is wrong, it just means that people are full of shit and HAD they TRULY held themselves to this standard, they would have lived in what would be close to an utopian society. I don't want to romanticize this way of thinking and say that if we were all like this the world would be the best place ever and if you don't think like this your part of the problem, but I certainly think the argument could be made that holding yourself to a higher moral standard has all throughout history lead to probably the most significant changes in human rights.

**YaelTheGreat** · (This post was last modified: 08-26-2011 02:20 AM by YaelTheGreat.)

(08-26-2011 02:01 AM)TheMythOfSisyphus Wrote:
Quote:Reality is NOT an objective absolute. There’s no way to tell whether reality is objective or not because it can only be perceived subjectively. While it could be argued that the consensus of multiple subjective realities equals objective reality, the exact same logic would also assign objective reality to Jung’s archetypes, which appear inside every human being’s dreams. In any case, measuring something changes the thing measured, so simply perceiving “reality” changes the nature of reality. Therefore, so it can’t be absolute.

That is my favorite argument against Objectivism. I think it brings up a very good point. So Yael let me ask you, what Objectivist beliefs do you think hold solid ground? Also, how do you feel about just the very idea that reality and morality are objective absolutes?

In the above post I answered your first question. The second is that morality and reality are objective absolutes because if something is found to be a fact it is exactly that. Pondering whether it is truly a fact or a subjective perceptiom is a huge waste of time and effort where you learn and gain nothing.

(08-26-2011 02:13 AM)TheMythOfSisyphus Wrote: Awww shit son, the old "People on welfare leeching off society" argument. I'm not quite sure I agree with that HOWEVER, I think you are dead on about people holding themselves to a higher standard. I was having this discussion today as a matter of fact in my National Government class. The Declaration of Independence was based off the idea of our natural rights. Well, what are natural rights? Well they would be defined by the people who wrote the DOI as your God given rights, the bible being the source of the highest moral authority of the time. Now how the US turned out is irrelevant, the point is that using a higher moral standard, they were able to come up with what was at the time probably the closest thing to absolute freedom for the people (if you weren't black or native american). Of course, they were slave owning hypocrites, but that doesn't mean that using a higher moral authority is wrong, it just means that people are full of shit and HAD they TRULY held themselves to this standard, they would have lived in what would be close to an utopian society. I don't want to romanticize this way of thinking and say that if we were all like this the world would be the best place ever and if you don't think like this your part of the problem, but I certainly think the argument could be made that holding yourself to a higher moral standard has all throughout history lead to probably the most significant changes in human rights.

I know that there are many people that need welfare, but I have seen many who have abused welfare because they are lazy pieces of shits. Peoples history and current sources of income should be thouroghly looked at before putting them on welfare.

**Asshole** · (This post was last modified: 08-26-2011 02:27 AM by Asshole.)

ayn rand? FUCK HER

(08-26-2011 02:16 AM)YaelTheGreat Wrote: I know that there are many people that need welfare, but I have seen many who have abused welfare because they are lazy pieces of shits. Peoples history and current sources of income should be thouroghly looked at before putting them on welfare.

a little elitist there aren't we?

**YaelTheGreat** · (This post was last modified: 08-26-2011 02:32 AM by YaelTheGreat.)

Wow^^

(08-26-2011 02:26 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote: ayn rand? FUCK HER

(08-26-2011 02:16 AM)YaelTheGreat Wrote: I know that there are many people that need welfare, but I have seen many who have abused welfare because they are lazy pieces of shits. Peoples history and current sources of income should be thouroghly looked at before putting them on welfare.

a little elitist there aren't we?

Not really, I just know how people abuse the system. Why the fuck do I have to go the PA to buy stuff on sale because my mother works for a living while the lazy ass bitch from across the street is on welfare and her kids are walking around with the newest jordans. How is that fair. I am not against welfare, I'm against how easy it is to abuse it.

**TheMythOfSisyphus** · 08-26-2011, 02:39 AM

Having spent some time in NYC with my brother who lives in the projects let me tell anyone who is living in a socialist dream world that there are people who leech off the system heavily. With that being said, I believe it is more of a cultural problem than it is a problem with human nature. Its really a 2 step process, society fucks you, then it encourages you to become complacent and live in this miserable world of dependence and inferiority. I'm sure it doesn't help that everyone living there thinks living on welfare is something to be proud of, like its something cool. But again, that's a cultural issue. On the other issue I posted a reply but it didn't go through for whatever reason and i'm too lazy to repost it because it was long so i'll just sum it up and say that I believe in laws of the physical world, such as laws of science, etc. So to me I see no reason to believe there are no laws in the metaphysical world.

**YaelTheGreat** · 08-26-2011, 02:43 AM

Guess where I live

Also Rand does talk about how society forces people to be dependent on them, she had some good points to make.

**TheMythOfSisyphus** · 08-26-2011, 02:46 AM

Yael stop being blinded by this cult of hatred and selfishness.

**YaelTheGreat** · 08-26-2011, 02:50 AM

A cult, i doubt it is. And I don't affliate myself wih it because I have not read up on it to much and have not made a decision on what I believe as my philosophical values. I just asked a question on this forum for educated minds to debate on it, but apparently that is to hard to ask.

**TheMythOfSisyphus** · 08-26-2011, 02:54 AM

I'm just trolling you bro, calm down. Even if I don't agree with what someone has to say doesn't mean I don't think they should be able to express their opinions. I am always open to debate and I welcome it. Always ask questions Yael, always in life ask questions.

**zanj uhuru** · 08-26-2011, 02:57 AM

(08-26-2011 02:39 AM)TheMythOfSisyphus Wrote: Having spent some time in NYC with my brother who lives in the projects let me tell anyone who is living in a socialist dream world that there are people who leech off the system heavily. With that being said, I believe it is more of a cultural problem than it is a problem with human nature. Its really a 2 step process, society fucks you, then it encourages you to become complacent and live in this miserable world of dependence and inferiority. I'm sure it doesn't help that everyone living there thinks living on welfare is something to be proud of, like its something cool. But again, that's a cultural issue. On the other issue I posted a reply but it didn't go through for whatever reason and i'm too lazy to repost it because it was long so i'll just sum it up and say that I believe in laws of the physical world, such as laws of science, etc. So to me I see no reason to believe there are no laws in the metaphysical world.

blah blah blah so what if SOME leech the vast majority are using it for basic survival. What cultural problem we are talking about the systematic disinclusion of a people from society REGARDLESS of race look at the British riots if you don't believe me, look where the first place to cut budgets are in education in health care in social benefits and job training .Your attempt to distort the reality of people in the ghetto's is without any kind of claim.

**YaelTheGreat** · 08-26-2011, 02:59 AM

I meant mostly the other people who posted. I'm just starting to look for my political and economic views. I just think that people should always look at different perspectives and the possible value in them.