Modern Empires 1: Britian

[Dumbat]

(10-27-2009 04:14 PM)Benny Wrote:  

(10-27-2009 12:59 PM)Boboulas Wrote:  I dont know if britian perpusfully persued enslavement of people or even an empire.

Tell that to the Irish nationalists who were taken to blacksmiths and systematically had every bone in their body broken. Or the Catholics who were subjected to "pitch-capping" (having molten hot pitch poured on their heads which stripped the flesh to the skull) or "half-hangings". Or how about the penal laws which made intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics illegal, made it illegal for a Catholic to have parliamentary representation, or own land, or own a horse worth more than £5. I could go on all day really and that's just taking examples from my own country, it's not even beginning to mention the use of concentration camps during the Boer war or all the other grizzly stuff Britain did internationally.

For the record I'm not a Catholic or a Republican, still I think you should be a bit more careful with your wording there.

With Ireland though, the question isn't did they do bad things, it's did they do them to create an Empire, or just to 'maintain order'. That was the question he was answering.

The crimes were horrific, but its the motive that we were questioning.

By the way, did you learn those in school or from outside reading. Cuz i'm English and if every child is taught those things I'm not supprised you steriotypically hate us.

[Boboulas]

benny, you are describing a period that i said britian showed its nasty imperial colours, late 19th centry and early 20th, i worded like anyone else would have.

[Benny]

(10-27-2009 07:09 PM)Dumbat Wrote:  By the way, did you learn those in school or from outside reading. Cuz i'm English and if every child is taught those things I'm not supprised you steriotypically hate us.

Yeah we learned that in school, it was all pretty nasty stuff all right. Still I have done some outside reading.

As regards whether it was to create an empire or maintain order, it was done to maintain an empire, denying people democracy will never create order. I don't want to come across as being racist here at all by the way. As for when it was, probably the whole 19th century not just the latter part.

If you want earlier examples of nasty imperial colours look no farther than Cromwell in 1649-1653.

[Dumbat]

(10-27-2009 07:50 PM)Benny Wrote:  If you want earlier examples of nasty imperial colours look no farther than your boy Cromwell in 1649-1653.

I looked into him outside of schooling, but could never really find many books with more than 5 pages describing his actions in Ireland, or going into details or tortures.

Most english are quite ignorant on this subject, myself included. I never had a single lesson in any part of school where Ireland was mentioned until I went to 6th form, and that was only because the teacher chose to go outside the course and look at the Easter Uprising. English history lessons speak of 3 times events, WW1 and WW2 and occasionally the victorians. Never much about the oppression our forefathers enforced.

[Boboulas]

Britian wasnt an empire then though, and cromwell was a military dictator. And i say late early 20th/late 19th becuase so much happened in that time in terms of imperial europe. Ofcourse there were crimes before that but dumbats question was if britian intentionaly became an empire, and i mentioned the time i did becuase of what he mentioned.

P.S dont call cromwell "my boy" kind of like calling hitler "germanys boy"

[Benny]

Yeah sorry about that last part actually that wasn't fair. A good few English people I talked to told me that Cromwell is considered a national hero over there with statues to him and so on, they were genuinely stunned to hear about what he got up to in Ireland.

[Dumbat]

(10-27-2009 08:15 PM)Benny Wrote:  Yeah sorry about that last part actually that wasn't fair. A good few English people I talked to told me that Cromwell is considered a national hero over there with statues to him and so on, they were genuinely stunned to hear about what he got up to in Ireland.

Don't forget we dug Cromwell up and put his head on a pike, so it wasn't all praise.

Best tribute to him is the monty python song - Oliver Cromwell

[Benny]

(10-27-2009 08:56 PM)Dumbat Wrote:  Don't forget we dug Cromwell up and put his head on a pike, so it wasn't all praise.

Best tribute to him is the monty python song - Oliver Cromwell

True, but the part where this actually starts to get funny is that the people who dug him up did so because...wait for it.... he was a Republican! :huh::huh::huh::huh::huh:

Nice link there gott love the python, for the sake of showing both sides though here's my one The Pogues - Young Ned of the Hill :wink:

[Marduk Slayer Of Tiamat]

that was a very interesting read, I like that we share a same belief that the Seven Years War is the real first World War

BTW do you know anything about the Boer War, and the War with the Zulu tribe?

[Boboulas]

i know a little, im not too enlightend on those.

[Marduk Slayer Of Tiamat]

(10-30-2009 05:54 PM)Boboulas Wrote:  i know a little, im not too enlightend on those.

I don't know much either lol, only that the Boers were Dutch farmers fighting against the british, they lost due to Britain's technical speriority

and about the Zulu wars I only know that the British were defeated several times

[Dumbat]

(10-30-2009 06:39 PM)Marduk Slayer Of Tiamat Wrote:  I don't know much either lol, only that the Boers were Dutch farmers fighting against the british, they lost due to Britain's technical speriority

The Boer war was Britain attempting to suppress the Dutch farmers. They didn't win due to technical superiority, but numbers. It was an early British equivilent to Vietnam.

The reason this war had such a large affect was that Britain was losing initially, the people at home believed the British Empire was indestructible and that they would eventually rule the whole world. So when they declared war on 100,000 or so farmers they thought they would crush them within weeks.

The British were armed with calvalry, old fashioned rifles, and new uniforms. Between 30-50% of men applying to fight were too ill to be allowed in, the public horror at this helped pave the way for social reform later.

The Boers had the newest German guns, a knowledge of the land, an ability to build trenches and alot of willpower. They were gorilla warriors.

Initially the Boers would ambush British troops, kill them all, then retreat into the forests where they would escape. Realising they weren't getting anywhere they called in Kitchener (The person later in charge of the British effort in WW1 until his ship got mined and he drowned in 1916).

Kitchener placed barbed wire fences around the country, with over 400 guard posts. His men then marched through the land, any houses found were burnt, sheep killed, and the civilians shipped away to special "holding areas".

These holding areas were where we get the word "Concentration camp" from. Due to mismanagement the camps were disease ridden and had very little food. One of the most enduring images of these camps is below:

Around 20,000 of the 120,000 who entered the camps died, mostly women and children of Black-African decent, who played only a small part in the war effort.

Using this tactic the British eventually won, although they were discraced on the world stage and the public moral was destroyed. The cost of the war was £20 billion in modern money. It was this defeat that ensured a reform of the army, which would prove useful during WW1.

Hope that helps, I did that from memory so some of the facts/ dates may be slightly off.