Marx vs Keynes: Where Does Economic Growth Come From?

[High Nigga Pie]

Vegan, your alive!

[The Vegan Marxist]

haha, yeah. Been pretty busy with the FRSO and the Occupy Movement lately. The struggle comes first!

[matt romney]

(11-27-2011 02:27 AM)The Vegan Marxist Wrote:  Yeah, Fight Back! is the name the FRSO applied to itself after the split from the social-democratic FRSO-OSCL back in '99. FRSO-Fight Back! is strictly Marxist-Leninist. Of course, Fight Back! was only applied to represent its newspapers and the early stages after the split. Today, we prefer just referring to ourselves as the FRSO.

well fightback! is actually a trotskyist organization but i've seen a variety of uses for it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fightback!. i'll ask them why they are called that.

[The Vegan Marxist]

(11-27-2011 02:52 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  well fightback! is actually a trotskyist organization but i've seen a variety of uses for it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fightback!. i'll ask them why they are called that.

The one you refer to, yes. But the FRSO Fight Back! is not Trotskyist. In fact, we're very much against Trotskyism.

[matt romney]

oh vegan, can we still be friends? i <3 trotsky.

[shakur420]

(11-20-2011 03:20 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  i think that addresses most of your confusion.

I'm still confused. See if you can answer some of the questions I dropped cause I don't see how real growth, or workers control even, is addressed. Like I said, the 2 big things he ignored are good examples (as I understand them) of economic growth helping the working class. The war economy and the New Deal. Like I said, some help please.

The next 2 articles, I understand at least. I've read pretty much the same shit. Sometimes, from mainstream media, you have to read between the lines, but I've read a lot of similar stuff. It's good to hear the false framework get baited out every once in a while. lol, it's usually a debate between "free markets" and "more regulation/controls". These articles remind you that there's other options, like a different economic system altogether. And I like how they mentioned some things that should be done in the "meantime", while we're still stuck with this bullshit.

Question. The stuff about debt increase, that's interesting. Now, I've never thought about it that way, that as private sector debt went down (mainly the financial companies), the state debt went up because of the bailouts and shit. And there's a clear distinction made between the pre and post 70s periods. Why is the financialization of the economy not taken into account? It's actually similar to the one question in my first post, like debt is automatically seen as a bad thing (even though it's admitted that the massive amount of debt is what helped to buffer the crash a bit, though I think inflation in general might have something to do with it, but I don't really know shit, so whatever), why is the distinction not made between debt in a financialized economy (what we have after the 70s) and debt in a production-based economy (what we had before the 70s)? Because growth that helps the working class is certainly achieved through expansion of the production sectors. And they do that through increasing debt, by borrowing.

The conclusion I would draw reading the figures and shit in these 2 articles is that increases in debt from the financial sector do nothing for the working class where increases in debt from production-based industry definitely help the working class. I've thought about it too, so that helps, like if the banks expand, they borrow money to expand, but they don't really hire that many new employees. They don't need to. Usually, their expansion doesn't require as much labor, say compared to car manufacturers. When production-based industry expands, it allows borrows to do this as well, but their expansion requires a substantial increase in labor, their revenues are based on actually production where the financial sector's revenues are based on money. Speculation, stock prices, lending rates, etc. You know where I could read more from this guy? From that site?

[matt romney]

i just facebook friended him, i'll ask him. can you type specific questions that i could ask them tomorrow at the meeting? facebook message them to me too so i can access it from my phone.