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ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
12-23-2011, 08:30 PM
Post: #37
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
jewfaq has got to be the greatest name for a website i've ever seen in my life.

(09-04-2012 04:29 AM)Laz Wrote:  i fucking love saks

(10-04-2012 07:54 PM)psy0nyd3 Wrote:  Science loves Buddhism(the most refined form of spirituality)
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Thanks given by: Asshole , 1871
12-23-2011, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 12-23-2011 09:35 PM by 1871.)
Post: #38
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
hahahahahahaha

well what else for a page about Israel?

Again it is a contradiction since it claims Zionism is a political movement and not religious - but I suppose it was wanted to give the belief that it could be secular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion
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Thanks given by: TheMythOfSisyphus
12-23-2011, 11:20 PM
Post: #39
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
(12-23-2011 07:34 PM)Laz Wrote:  what was the point you were making then? i'll probably still disagree because the word homeland usually signals some ultranationalist subliminal racist shit and using the old testament to back up your argument is laughable

lol, dude read the posts. I mentioned something about how zionism is secular, the expansion policy is carried out for secular reasons, things like resources and demographics. Genocide carried out against the Palestinians is just an extension of this plan, what Kissinger called the "stalemate" option or whatever in the 70s. It's just a byproduct, an inevitable one if your goals to expand include populated land. It's very clear, say if you take a look at the chopped up West Bank, what's been appropriated and what's been left to rot, where the Jewish-only roads connect and what they keep out. It's all about resource expropriation, lol, not religion. But it's smart, keep talkin about the few nuts who feel a religious entitlement - on both sides - and people will believe things like "the Jews and Muslims have been fighting for hundreds of years over there". lol, magnifying the religious component just keeps the focus off the real issues, problems and policies. It's like Iraq and Afghanistan, keep talking about withdrawal or entrenchment, keep the debate on that so the real important issue - the will of the Afghans - stays out of people's minds.

When he's referencing the Bible or whatever, he's trynna make the point that zionist goals are based off that. lol, he's not making a case for Israel, expansion, genocide or whatever, he's just saying that policy has been based off religion.

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"...If the rhetoric is essential to the philosophy, then there is something wrong with the philosophy. Your massive intellect should be able to describe your philosophy without continually referring to your special rhetoric..."
- Yael The Great
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12-24-2011, 02:31 AM
Post: #40
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
i understand sorry. i'd say its a combination of both. many jewish israelites believe god put them there and then there are pricks like obama.

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12-24-2011, 09:30 AM (This post was last modified: 12-24-2011 09:34 AM by 1871.)
Post: #41
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
Thankyou for that brilliant insight. Finkelstein eat your heart out.

The settlers arrive in Israel and the lands they 'settle' on

The 'demographics' only occur because settlers have been invited to occuppy that land - and for religious reasons - that it is the land promised to the Jews. That 'resource expropration' is based on religious grounds - those are its roots - the reason for returning to the holy land in the first place.

Quote:Reuters) - Beset by questions about Jerusalem's future in talks with the Palestinians, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reached for the Bible on Wednesday to stake out the Jewish state's contested claim on the city.

Netanyahu told a parliamentary session commemorating Israel's capture of East Jerusalem from Jordan in the 1967 war that "Jerusalem" and its alternative Hebrew name "Zion" appear 850 times in the Old Testament, Judaism's core canon.

"As to how many times Jerusalem is mentioned in the holy scriptures of other faiths, I recommend you check," he said.

Citing such ancestry, Israel calls all of Jerusalem its "eternal and indivisible" capital -- a designation not recognized abroad, where many powers support Arab claims to East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state.

The dispute is further inflamed by the fact East Jerusalem houses al-Aqsa mosque, Islam's third-holiest shrine, on a plaza that Jews revere as the vestige of two biblical Jewish temples.

Heckled by a lawmaker from Israel's Arab minority, Netanyahu offered a lesson in comparative religion from the lectern.

"Because you asked: Jerusalem is mentioned 142 times in the New Testament, and none of the 16 various Arabic names for Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran. But in an expanded interpretation of the Koran from the 12th century, one passage is said to refer to Jerusalem," he said.

Responding to Netanyahu's citations, Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erekat said: "I find it very distasteful, this use of religion to incite hatred and fear. East Jerusalem is an occupied Palestinian town, and East Jerusalem cannot continue to be occupied if there is to be peace."

MANY RULERS

Destroyed as a Jewish capital by the Romans in the 1st century AD, Jerusalem was a Christian city under their Byzantine successors before falling to Muslim Arabs in the 7th. European Crusaders regained it for a century, after which came 700 years of Muslim rule until Britain defeated the Ottoman Turks in 1917.

As Britain prepared to quit, the United Nations proposed international rule for the city in 1947 as a "corpus separatum."

That proposal was overtaken by fighting that left Israel holding West Jerusalem in 1948 and Jordanian forces in East Jerusalem. Israel then took the rest in the Six Day War of 1967.

The city, within boundaries defined by Israel but not recognized internationally, is now home to 750,000 people, two in three of them Jews and the rest mostly Muslim Palestinians.

Netanyahu did not refer in his speech to indirect peace negotiations with the Palestinians that resumed this month after 1-1/2 years of U.S. trouble-shooting. Diplomacy has been mired by mutual recrimination, including from Israel over the Palestinian refusal to formally recognize it as a Jewish state.

This has ossified into diehard hostility among Palestinians aligned with Islamist Hamas, while those more inclined toward peacemaking accuse Israel of sabotaging prospects by treating occupied land as a Jewish birthright that can be freely seized.

Netanyahu said Israel would retain control over all of Jerusalem while ensuring freedom of worship at its holy sites.

Such assertions are challenged by Palestinians given that Israel, over the last decade of fighting, has often limited their access to al-Aqsa. Christians in the adjacent West Bank complain of similar difficulties in reaching Jerusalem churches.

"There is no undercutting, nor do I intend to undercut, the connection of others to Jerusalem," Netanyahu said.

"But I do confront the attempt to undercut and warp or obfuscate the unique connection that we, the people of Israel, have to the capital of Israel."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/1...EY20100512



Quote:It seems that the scenes of burning mosques at West Bank has become a daily routine by illegal Jewish settlers. On Thursday at dawn, a group of Jewish settlers burnt a mosque in Borqa village, east of the central West Bank city of Ramallah, and wrote racist graffiti on its walls. The incident is the latest of a series of attacks against Palestinian mosques and property.

The Al-Nour Mosque was still burning when villagers arrived for Dawn Prayer (before sunrise) locals said, adding that the fire had spread to the first and second floors and caused extensive damage.

The attack comes a day after Jewish extremists torched a 13th-century mosque in Jerusalem, spraying "Death to the Arabs" and "Muhammad is a pig" on the building.

Nabil Abu Rudeineh, spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas denounced the incident saying that "an attack on (Muslim) holy places is a declaration of war on the Palestinians by the settlers."

Rudeineh said that the Palestinian Authority holds Israel responsible for such arsons and urged the international community to intervene in the matter.

Despite a string of violent attacks by settlers, including a rampage on an army base, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday rejected a recommendation to classify the Jewish extremists as terrorists.

Settlers frequently desecrate mosques and Muslim cemeteries and destroy Palestinian olive trees and cars. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told Army Radio on Wednesday settler violence was terrorism.

"In terms of their conduct, there is no doubt that this is the conduct of terrorists: terrorism, albeit Jewish."

After the Jerusalem mosque attack, Israeli MP Mohammed Barake lashed out at his fellow parliamentarians for fanning the flames of racial hatred with a spate of draft legislation targeting Israel's Palestinian minority.

"Responsibility for the mosque burning does not only lie with the gang of fascists who carried it out, but also with some of the scumbags among the MPs and ministers," he said in a statement.

"Those MPs should not pretend they are shocked when the draft laws they back become a raging fire that devours mosques," he said.

And Emek Shaveh, an Israeli NGO which fights against the manipulation of archaeological sites for political gain, said the attack had damaged an important aspect of local heritage.

"The destruction of the antiquities, in this case probably by Israelis, is part of the process of erasure of 'the other' -- of everything that doesn't suit the extremist and one-dimensional ideology of certain Israeli groups," it said in a statement.

Among the words scrawled on the mosque's walls were the names of two settlement outposts slated for demolition -- such attacks are often linked to government attempts to remove outposts.

The arson attack in Jerusalem occurred just 24 hours after settlers attacked troops and an army base in the northern West Bank in an incident that deeply angered Israel's leadership.

Several hours earlier, settlers also broke into a closed military zone along the Jordanian border.

In related news, Israeli troops closed the Huwwara and Za’tara roadblocks on Thursday morning, near the northern West Bank city of Nablus, under the pretext of preventing settler attacks against Palestinian vehicles in the area.

Soldiers also installed roadblocks in the northern West Bank districts of Qalqilia and Tulkarem.

Moreover, the Israeli mayor of Jerusalem said Thursday that lands outside of the area allocated for Israel's West Bank barrier could eventually be abandoned to the Palestinian Authority, Israeli media reported.

Nir Barkat was quoted by Israel's Maariv newspaper telling graduates of the National Security Academy that he had no objections to giving up those lands, and he said the position was shared by the municipality.

Lands "owned" by the municipality, a unilaterally declared Israeli administration, but which fall on the opposite side of the wall could be handed back, while those inside the wall should be annexed, he said.

Barkat also recommended maintaining the separation barrier. Still, he stressed that the Palestinian Authority should be given a chance to administer the affairs of the residents of territories surrounding Jerusalem and outside of the wall's route, which snakes in and out of the occupied West Bank.

That would mean areas like Kafr Aqab village, located on the Palestinian Authority's "side" of the wall, would no longer be considered within the jurisdiction of the Jerusalem municipality, Maariv reported.

According to the report, the PA and Hamas are quietly competing for the area, while the Jerusalem municipality is facing both of them to maintain control itself. Barkat says he would prefer to give the area up.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-new...-continues

Quote: Shakur

magnifying the religious component just keeps the focus off the real issues, problems and policies. It's like Iraq and Afghanistan, keep talking about withdrawal or entrenchment, keep the debate on that so the real important issue - the will of the Afghans - stays out of people's minds.

You dont need to magnify the 'religious component' - its there and it magnifies itself. Theres no use ignoring Zionism. Zionism is very much at the heart of the issue. It isnt possible to continually allow people to settle - to deal with illegal settlements, those also which will obviously expand as there is a continual expansion. I doubt whether events in Israel keep the 'real issues' out of peoples minds at all. What do you think prompts people to settle and to approach the percieved right to settle on lands with such fervour?

Take a look at these photos. Id post them up here if I knew how to post images - but take a look at the images - they are self explanatory.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06...e_wes.html
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12-24-2011, 11:20 AM
Post: #42
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
It might be because I'm bit of a nihilist but every time I read something about potential world destruction, nuclear holocaust, world war 3, or religious nonsense in general, I kind of hope the shit happens.

Bring on the killer cockroaches or mutant hybrids. Whoever or whatever is still alive after the fact can start this party over.
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12-24-2011, 11:27 AM
Post: #43
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
^


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12-24-2011, 04:15 PM
Post: #44
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
It's funny that you mention Netanyahu dropping Bible references. I'm sure you know that Netanyahu is just pandering to a constituency. He's part of a coalition, remember? The coalition is not just "right" and "center" or "right" and "further to the right", or whatever, it's a coalition of secular and religious.

Quote:Netanyahu’s Partners, Democracy’s Enemies


ISRAEL is at a fascinating, and frightening, crossroads. In the last two years the Knesset has proposed and passed laws that seriously endanger Israel’s identity as a liberal democracy.

It began with a law forbidding public commemoration of the Palestinian refugee crisis of 1948, known as the Nakba; it continued with the demand for all new Israeli citizens to swear a loyalty oath to a Jewish and democratic country, and recently culminated in a bill outlawing calls to boycott any Israeli group or product — including those from the occupied territories.

On the other hand, in the last two months, Israel’s democracy has come dramatically alive after a long period of hibernation. Protests for social justice have mobilized hundreds of thousands in demonstrations that have the support of 87 percent of the country, according to a Haaretz poll. These protests have become an exercise in direct democracy, forcing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to move beyond party politics and listen directly to the grievances of Israel’s disenfranchised middle classes.

Existential fears have pushed Israelis to the right; only when it comes to social questions are they willing to listen to the largely liberal middle class. Who, then, represents the real Israel? Is Israel an open-minded, liberal country with a developed sense of justice, or is it an ethnocracy with theocratic leanings?

Mr. Netanyahu believes that he can avoid agreeing to a viable Palestinian state, in the face of fierce international criticism, because he is certain that America’s heartland, as opposed to its liberal elites, is tied to Israel on ideological and theological grounds. The ovations he received in Congress earlier this year only strengthened this belief. Convinced that Obama won’t win a second term, he simply wants to hang on until a Republican president is sworn in.

His foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has a very different worldview. Mr. Lieberman’s open disdain for European leaders and diplomats is not a failure of diplomacy; he is a shrewd man, who first and foremost seeks to cultivate an image of a strong leader for his right-wing constituency. He believes that the West’s hegemony has come to an end, and that the future lies with autocratic governments like those ruling Russia and China. Hence he believes that Israel has no reason to pander to the West’s values.

To him, liberal democracy represents weakness and he contends that Israel should evolve into a stronger state with less individual freedom. At the same time, he is completely secular: his constituency is primarily of Russian origin, and many of its members are not accepted as Jewish by Israel’s Orthodox rabbinical establishment.

The national-religious parties in the governing coalition, meanwhile, are based on the belief that the Jewish people have a God-given right to what they call the Greater Land of Israel. In the long run, they want Israel to be a theocracy based on biblical law. Their participation in the democratic game is based on the prediction that Israel’s demography will inevitably lead to an Orthodox Jewish majority, and that they simply need to make sure that Israel doesn’t give up the West Bank before they rule the country.

The ultra-Orthodox parties, Shas and Yahadut Hatorah, also want Israel to become a theocracy in the long run. Until a decade ago, they did not necessarily claim that Israel should hold on to the occupied territories, but they realized that their electorate is right-leaning, and they need space for the rapidly expanding families of their constituency. They see liberal elites as their primary enemies.

The paradox, of course, is that Mr. Lieberman and the religious parties are on opposing ends of the spectrum in other ways. Mr. Lieberman wants a secular state; the religious parties want a theocracy. What unites them is that, for completely different reasons, they have no investment in the values of liberal democracy, which are one of the major stumbling blocks for Israel’s annexation of the West Bank. As Israeli liberals have repeated ad nauseam, such annexation will either lead to a binational state without a Jewish majority, or to an apartheid regime.

The coalition partners have found a modus vivendi primarily by uniting in their hatred for the institutions that uphold liberal democratic values: Israel’s Supreme Court, its largely liberal academic community and its human rights organizations.

Israel’s recent falling out with Turkey is just the latest example: Mr. Lieberman made it impossible for Mr. Netanyahu to apologize for the killing of nine people by Israeli commandos on the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara last year by insisting that it would undermine Israel’s national pride. When Turkey retaliated with trade sanctions and threats of an increased naval presence in the Mediterranean, Mr. Lieberman called on Israel to support Kurdish militants. Mr. Lieberman keeps upping the ante for being a patriotic Israeli, pulling Mr. Netanyahu along with him.

The staying power of Israel’s governing coalition is primarily the result of the trauma Israelis sustained during the second Palestinian intifada and subsequent rocket attacks. Israelis have trouble trusting anybody but a hard-liner for fear that, once again, they will become targets of terror attacks.

Mr. Netanyahu’s coalition may seem incoherent in its core values, but it has created a potentially explosive mix that has brought considerable damage to Israel, pushing it into unprecedented isolation that is only likely to deepen if a sizable majority of the United Nations General Assembly recognizes Palestine as a state later this month. This would be especially challenging when relations are already strained with historic regional allies like Egypt and Turkey.

The irony is that Mr. Netanyahu himself is not opposed to liberal democracy. But the only way for him to prevent an independent Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders is to hold his right-wing coalition together.

Mr. Lieberman has outflanked him and challenged his leadership of the Israeli right. Mr. Netanyahu needs to keep up with the right-wing Joneses and show that he is no less of a strong leader. The only common denominator of his major coalition partners is enmity to the core values of liberal democracy, and, for lack of choice, he has so far pandered to their wishes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/opinio....html?_r=1


Quote:Israel is tearing apart the Jewish people


Israel has never had a government that so blatantly violates the core values of liberal democracy, which dismisses identities of 85% of the world's Jewry.

In June last year, Peter Beinart published an article in the New York Review of Books that created quite a storm by pointing out the deep estrangement between the young generation of American Jews and Israel. A year later, it is time to take stock.

Unfortunately, the situation has only grown a lot worse. In my travels to Europe I speak to predominantly Jewish audiences, but also to non-Jews who care deeply about Israel. They voice their pain and anguish openly: They want to understand what has happened to Israel. They desperately want to stand by it, but they are, increasingly, at a loss of knowing how to do so.

Their questions are simple. They know that Israel is located in one of the world's most difficult neighborhoods; they have no illusions about the Iranian regime or Hezbollah; and they know the Hamas charter. But they don't understand how any of this is connected with Israel's settlement policies, the dispossession of Palestinian property in Jerusalem, and the utterly racist talk about the 'Judaization' of Jerusalem. They feel that they no longer have arguments, even words, to defend Israel.

Israel has never had a government that so blatantly violates the core values of liberal democracy. Never has a Knesset passed laws that are as manifestly racist as the current one. Israel has had foreign ministers who were unworldly and didn't know English; but it has never had a foreign minister whose only goal is to pander to his right-wing constituency by flaunting his disdain for international law and the idea of human rights with such relish.

Moreover, there has never been a government so totally oblivious of its relation to world Jewry. It passes laws that increase the Orthodox establishment's stranglehold on religious affairs and personal life - completely disregarding that 85 percent of world Jewry are not Orthodox - and simply dismissing their Jewish identities and their institutions. As a result, this majority of world Jewry feels Israel couldn't care less about its values and identity.

Israel's Orthodox establishment claims that by monopolizing conversion to Judaism and the laws of marriage, they are preventing a rift in the Jewish people. The exact opposite is true: It is Israel's turn toward racism that extends not only toward its Arab citizens, but toward Ethiopian youth not accepted into schools in Petah Tikva, toward Sephardic girls not allowed to study in Haredi schools in Immanuel, that most Jews in the world cannot stand for. It is the unholy coalition between nationalism and Orthodoxy that is tearing the Jewish people apart.

The overwhelming majority of American and European Jews are deeply committed to Universalist values, and have been so for most of their existence. This commitment is not a fad or an attempt to be fashionable and politically correct. It is the deeply felt conclusion the majority of world Jewry draws from Jewish history: After all that has happened to us, we Jews must never, ever allow violation of universal human rights.

This is why Jews in the U.S. have been central in the Civil Rights movement; this is why Jews in Europe will never forget that only Universalist liberals stood by Alfred Dreyfus in 1890s France. For most Jews of the world, it is simply unfathomable: How can we, who have suffered from racial and religious discrimination, use language and hold views that - as Israel Prize laureate and historian of fascism Zeev Sternhell argued - were last held in the Western world by the Franco regime?

For most of world Jewry, the idea of Yiddishkeit in the second half of the 20th century meant that Jews must never compromise on the equality of human beings before the law and the inviolability of their rights. So how can they stand by a state that continues to pay rabbis who argue that Jewish life has a sanctity that doesn't extend to gentiles, and that it is forbidden to rent property to Arabs?

In moments of despair, I try to remember that Israel's move to the right is driven by fear and confusion, ruthlessly fanned by politicians whose hold on power depends on the panic of Israel's citizens. I feel it can't be true that the country that was supposed not only to be the homeland of the Jews, but a moral beacon, is descending into such darkness. I try to remember that such times of darkness do not reflect on the human quality of a whole nation; that countries like Spain, Greece and Portugal emerged from dark times into the free world; that even though the winds of right-wing nationalism are sweeping over Israel, it is still a democracy.

Sometimes, along with the majority of Jews committed to liberal and Universalist values, I feel as if I were simply in a bad dream; that when I wake up, Herzl's vision of a Jewish state committed to the core values of liberalism will be the reality.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opi...e-1.369341


Quote:Religious Fundamentalism In Israel


Israel Shahak's (1933 - 2001) "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" argued that while Islamic fundamentalism is vilified in the West, comparable Jewish extremism is largely ignored. In the book's forward, Edward Said wrote:

"....Shahak's mode of telling the truth has always been rigorous and uncompromising. There is nothing seductive about it, no attempt made to put it 'nicely,' no effort expended on making the truth palatable....For Shahak killing is murder is killing is murder: his manner is to repeat. (He) shows that the obscure, narrowly chauvinist prescriptions against various undesirable Others are to be found in Judaism (as in other monotheistic religions) but he always goes on to show the continuity between those and the way Israel treats Palestinians, Christians and other non-Jews. A devastating portrait of prejudice, hypocrisy and religious intolerance emerges."

Shahak's "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel" picked up on the theme in explaining its pervasive, destructive influence in Israeli politics, the military and society. He noted that substituting German or Aryan for Jewish and non-Jews for Jews makes it easy to see how a superiority doctrine made an earlier genocide possible and is letting another happen now.

Shahak called all forms of bigotry morally reprehensible and said:

"Any form of racism, discrimination and xenophobia becomes more potent and politically influential if it is taken for granted by the society which indulges in it." For Israeli Jews, he believed, "The support of democracy and human rights is....meaningless or even harmful and deceitful when it does not begin with self-critique and with support of human rights when they are violated by one's own group. Any support of human rights for non-Jews whose rights are being violated by the 'Jewish state' is as deceitful as the support of human rights by a Stalinist...."

As a leading Israeli human rights activist and Holocaust survivor, Shakah reviewed Jewish fundamentalist history, examined its strains, and explained the dangers of extremist messianic ones. They oppose equality of Jews and non-Jews and destroy democratic values by espousing dogma calling Jews superior to all others.

The earlier influence of fundamentalist Rabbi Abraham Kook (1865 - 1935), or Kuk, was significant. He preached Jewish supremacy and said: "The difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews - all of them in all different levels - is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle." His teachings helped create the settler movement, and his son, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook, founded the extremist Gush Emunim (GE) under the slogan: "The Land of Israel, for the people of Israel, according to the Torah of Israel."

Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it.

Kook was Israel's first chief rabbi. In his honor and to continue his teachings, the extremist Merkaz Harav (the Rabbi's Center) was founded in 1924 as a yeshiva or fundamentalist religious college. It teaches that "non-Jews living under Jewish law in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) must either be enslaved as water carriers and wood hewers, or banished, or exterminated." It gets no more extremist than that and highlights the dangers for Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Territories. Their lives and welfare are being sacrificed for a Greater Israel for Jews alone.

Gush Emunim adherents and other Israeli religious zealots plan it. They're active in politics, hold seats in the Knesset, are Netanyahu government coalition partners (including Shas, United Torah and Yisrael Beiteinu), and are prominently represented in Israel's military throughout the ranks and rabbinate. Chief military rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, called Operation Cast Lead a "religious war" in which it was "immoral" to show mercy to an enemy of "murderers."

Many others feel the same way, prominently among them graduates of Hesder Yeshivat schools that combine extremist religious indoctrination with military service to defend the Jewish State.

In 1981, Rabbi Harav Lichtenstein's article, "The Ideology of Hesder: The View from Yeshivat Har Etzion," explained that:

"Hesder....seeks to attract and develop bnei torah (religious individuals) who are profoundly motivated by the desire to become serious talmidei machamim (religiously knowledgeable) but who concurrently feel morally and religiously bound to help defend their people and their country; who....regard this dual commitment as both a privilege and a duty....it thus enables them to maintain an integrated Jewish experience."

Nearly all Hesder graduates perform combat service for up to six years. Today 41 schools operate throughout Israel. In 1991, Hesder was awarded the Israel Prize (the state's highest honor) for its exceptional service to the nation.

One commander expressed how many feel in explaining the military's mission:

"We are the Jewish people. We came to this land by a miracle. God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the Gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land."

Extremist Israeli rabbis teach this ideology, and in 2003 Rabbi Saadya Grama's book, "Romemut Yisrael Ufarashat Hagalut (The Majesty of Israel and the Question of the Diaspora), argued that non-Jews are "completely evil" while Jews are genetically superior. Reform and conservative rabbis condemned it. Extremist orthodox ones endorsed it. Some more moderate ones also saying Grama advocates separating Jews from an intrinsically hostile anti-Semetic world. Rabbi Yosef Blau called the book "a call for a superior people to withdraw from the world and live in isolation while submitting to its enemies and placing trust in God."

Others in Israel teach the extremist notion that the ten commandments don't apply to non-Jews. So killing them in defending the homeland is acceptable, and according to Rabbi Dov Lior, chairman of the Jewish Rabbinic Council:

"There is no such thing as enemy civilians in war time. The law of our Torah is to have mercy on our soldiers and to save them....A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail."

Rabbi David Batsri called Arabs "a blight, a devil, a disaster....donkeys, and we have to ask ourselves why God didn't create them to walk on all fours. Well, the answer is that they are needed to build and clean." Extremist zealots want them for no other purpose in Jewish society.

In 2007, Israel's former chief rabbi, Mordechai Elyahu, called for the Israeli army to mass-murder Palestinians. In fanatical language he said:

"If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill 1000. And if they don't stop after 1000, then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000. Even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop."

In March 2009, Safed's chief rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu called for "state-sponsored revenge" to restore "Israel's deterrence....It's time to call the child by its name: Revenge, revenge, revenge. We mustn't forget. We have to take horrible revenge for the terrorist attack at Mercaz Harav yeshiva," referring to an earlier incident in which eight students died.

"I am not talking about individual people in particular. I'm talking about the state. (It) has to pain them where they scream 'Enough,' to the point where they fall flat on their face and scream 'help.' "

In June 2009, US Hasidic Rabbi Manis Friedman voiced a similar sentiment in calling on Israel to kill Palestinian "men, women and children."

"I don't believe in western morality, i.e. don't kill civilians or children, don't destroy holy sites, don't fight during the holiday seasons, don't bomb cemeteries, don't shoot until they shoot first because it is immoral. The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)."

Views like these aren't exceptions. Though a minority, they proliferate throughout Israeli society, and are common enough to incite violence against Palestinians, even when they rightfully defend themselves as international law allows.

Religious Extremism Threatens Any Chance for an Equitable Solution to the Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Israeli extremists are a minority but influential enough to make policy, and therein lies the threat to peace and likelihood of a sovereign Palestinian state. In his book, "A Little Too Close to God," David Horovitz recalled that before Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassination, he attended a Netanyahu-sponsored anti-Rabin rally he described as follows:

"I felt as if I were among wild animals, vicious, angry predators craving flesh and scenting blood. There was elation in the anger, elation bred of the certainty of eventual success."

In his book, "Terror in the Mind of God: The Global Rise of Religious Violence," Professor Mark Juergensmeyer compared the similarities among religious-motivated extremists, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh or others.

He related a conversation with Yoel Lerner who was imprisoned for trying to blow up the Dome of the Rock, the Muslim holy site, because he believed that an ancient Jewish temple stood there before it was destroyed.

He expressed messianic Zionism in saying the "Messiah will come to earth only after the temple is rebuilt and made ready for him," so Jews must assure it's done. These views are prominent in high places and throughout Israeli society; that is, religious fervor for a Greater Israel for Jews only, a Jewish state excluding all Arabs with violence an acceptable tool to remove them, and conflict will continue until they're gone.

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency's (JTA) Report on Jewish Extremists

On June 24, JTA wrote a special report on Jewish extremists in which it described "the face of radical Jewish nationalism in Israel....a movement of settler youths, rabbis, leaders and supporters determined to hold onto the West Bank at any cost." They represent a minority, but are a "vocal and increasingly violent constituency of the Jewish settler movement" rampaging against Palestinians and Israelis, confident that God is on their side, and one day a "Torah-based theocracy (will) triumph over the State of Israel."

Rabbi Yisrael Iriel is one of its adherents in preaching Jewish superiority and unwillingness to cede any part of biblical Israel to non-Jews. He's one of a "small group of (extremist) rabbis who provide the theological and ideological underpinnings for radical settlers."

The Israeli human rights group Yesh Din believes they number about 1000 but exert considerable influence nonetheless. They're an extremist fringe element, determined to use violence to achieve their goals, and are supported by other West Bank settlers. One young adherent expressed their agenda by saying "I think God chose a good and beautiful land for us," and we'll fight to keep it. If so, it makes peaceful resolution harder than ever to achieve, especially with political hard-liners in charge and most Israelis supporting them.

Hate Literature Distributed to Israeli Soldiers

Until discontinued on July 20, a booklet published by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, in cooperation with Rabbi Shmuel Eliahu, titled, "On Either Side of the Border" was given to IDF soldiers containing hateful fiction purported to be true. It suggested that the Pope and Vatican cardinals sympathized with Hezbollah's struggle and conspired with the organization to kill Jews. It claimed that the Vatican organized Auschwitz tours to teach its members how to do it, and that its leader, Hassan Nasrallah, was invited to join a delegation to tour France, Poland, Italy and the Vatican.

It also accused European politicians and journalists of conspiring against Israel. Rabbi Eliahu's aide, David Menahemov, claimed booklet material was true even though the account portrayed was preposterous. Yet one Israeli soldier said everyone in the ranks reads and believes it. Many soldiers told him, "Read this and you'll understand who the Arabs are" and why the Israeli cause is just.

During Operation Cast Lead, 10,000 mp3s were also distributed to Israeli forces with recorded extremist sermons. Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi Yona Metzger urged soldiers to "trust in God and know that war is being waged for the sanctification of His name....and not to fear. (Soldiers) should not think of (their) wi(ves) or children or (their) mother(s) and father(s)."

Chief Sephardic Rabbi Shlomo Amar called the Gaza conflict "a holy mission that is being waged in the name of the entire Jewish people."

Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu said "Our intention is to uplift soldiers' spirits" in battle against Hamas terrorists. The IDF Rabbinate division, Jewish Consciousness Field (JCF), also distributed a pamphlet titled "Jewish Consciousness Emphases for Cast Lead" calling military rabbis "Anointed Priests of War."

A JCF officer, Shmuel Yurman, explained the pamphlet's purpose as follows:

"This is the hour to strengthen our fighters in this heavenly commanded war that they have the merit to wage. Each (rabbi) has the knowledge and skills needed to contribute to the IDF battle spirit. Nevertheless, in order to enlighten and focus the spiritual message, JCF learned and prepared itself for this war before the operation began and as it was being fought. In meetings with soldiers and officers on the southern front we listened to the spiritual needs."

JCF's head, Rabbi Tzadok Ben-Artzi, justified the war saying:

"We, the people who contributed to the world the book of books, who want to build a society based on creativity and peace, love of mankind and faith in good, find ourselves chased by blind hatred that is motivated by 'religious' terminology and aspires to bloodshed and cruelty."

He advised IDF rabbis to say that the war's aim is "to save the Jewish people from its enemies" and eradicate evil in the world. Other extremist rabbis voiced the same sentiment, and, under Brigadier General Avichai Ronzki's command, the IDF's rabbinate theologized military missions and fed messianic dogma to young minds. Many in the ranks are already zealots enough to make spreading this gospel all the easier.

Ronzki explains it by saying that "as military rabbis, (we're) supposed to deal with helping soldiers to internalize Jewish values, spirit and consciousness as presented in Jewish sources. This is our main function as rabbis....(to) teach....what Judaism is."

Different Sides of Israel's Religious Community

Ronzki and other zealots represent one side of Israel's religious community, comprised of two major groups - religious Zionists and Charedim. Governed by their ideology, the former believe in the special relationship between God and Jews and see Israeli governance from that perspective. They comprise about two-thirds of the religious community and 8% of the population.
Representing the other third and about 4.5% of the population, the Charedim see Israel as a secular state like most others in the country.

Ethnicity also defines religious segments. Sephardic Jews originated from the Middle East, North Africa and Spain. Ashkenazi ones are from Eastern Europe and differ in religious and cultural traditions. Both communities attend separate synagogues in different neighborhoods, yet are represented in religious Zionist and Charedim camps. Israel has two chief rabbis, one Ashkenazi, the other Sephardic.

Though a minority, Israel's religious community wields considerable influence politically, in the military and society overall. Moreover, synagogues and yeshivas are popular places where people gather to discuss issues of common interest and hear the views of their rabbinical leaders.

The most extreme believe in Jewish sovereignty over all biblical Israel, so foregoing any of it is unthinkable. Thirteenth century Rabbi Moses Ben Nachman was their spiritual godfather. He wrote that Jews "should settle in the land and inherit it, because He gave it to them, and they should not reject God's inheritance." Our rabbis say it's "a mitzvah (commandment) to settle in the land and it is forbidden to leave it."

Similar dogma today holds that reclaiming Israel for Jews will foreshadow the coming of the messiah. Rabbi Avraham Kook preached it. Today's most extreme zealots believe that conceding any biblical land will delay or subvert messianic redemption, so it can't be tolerated. Palestinians are called enemies for wanting land of their own. Yielding any violates Jewish law they believe.

In contrast, secular Charedim accept land concessions for peace and want the government to make policy, not religious Zionists based on biblical law. They believe Israel should serve the interests of all Jews, not one segment over another, and feel no part of Israel is too sacred to concede (except Jerusalem) if it best serves the Jewish people overall.

They believe that the Torah promotes peaceful co-existence and, except for defense, conflict is counterproductive. Like religious Zionists, they feel all biblical Israel belongs to the Jews, yet they're willing to concede some in the interest of peace.

Most religious Israelis fall somewhere between these groups. They believe that biblical Israel was promised to Jews, yet accept compromise to one degree or another to preserve life and serve the best interests of all Jews.

How the future balance of power shifts from one side to the other will greatly influence the makeup of future Israeli governments and determine whether peaceful co-existance can replace over six decades of conflict and repression. So far it hasn't, and nothing suggests it will any time soon, not while extremist Zionists run the government, serve prominently in the IDF, and, according to critics, are gaining more power incrementally.

http://www.rense.com/general87/relig.htm


Quote:Mrs. Peters’s Palestine


For centuries the future of the place called Palestine was the subject of a bitter struggle. Even the name was controversial. Where the Arabs transformed the Roman name of Palestine into the Arabian name Filastin, the Jews insisted on the traditional Hebrew name Eretz Israel, “The Land of Israel.” Zealots of both sides continue to refuse to recognize the legitimacy of the name used by the other side. In the early days of the British Mandate, for instance, the Arabs successfully convinced the British that even in Hebrew the name should be Palestina and not Eretz Israel. The British added the initials “El” to Palestina only over heavy Arab opposition. On the other hand, some Israeli educators of the 1950s wanted only a transliteration of the Hebrew name to appear in the textbooks that were used in the Arabic-speaking schools. Along with armed struggle, ideological and propagandistic warfare of this sort has proliferated in the Arab–Jewish conflict over Palestine.

One feature of this battle of words and of history writing has been the two contrasting mythologies that the Arabs and the Jews have developed to explain their situations. Like most myths these generally contain some element of plausibility, some grain of historical truth, which through terminological ambiguity is then twisted into a false and grotesque shape: The unfortunate thing about Joan Peters’s From Time Immemorial (1984) is that from a position of apparently great learning and research, she attempts to refute the Arab myths merely by substituting the Jewish myths for them. Although she claims to have uncovered facts that show the historical accuracy of the Jewish myths, there have appeared during the last year and a half, in addition to many favorable reviews, a number of articles that dispute her collection and interpretation of this data.1 I do not propose here to go over the ground that these criticisms have already covered. Rather, I shall discuss both sets of myths in the light of the political and social history of Palestine as it is currently understood.

The Arab side tried to prove that first of all the Jews were not a nation in the modern sense of the term and consequently did not require a state of their own. In the tradition of both Western liberal and doctrinaire socialist thinking, the Arabs argued that the Jews were only a religious community; that peoples could not return to their ancient homelands without turning the entire world upside down; and, most important, that Palestine had been settled since the seventh century AD by Arabs. Over the years many Arab ideologists even claimed that Arabs had occupied the land in pre-Biblical times because of the “Arab character” of Canaanites.

Zionism, the Arab argument continued, if it had any grain of historical justification at all, emerged only in a European setting. It came about as a reaction to Western Christian or secular and racist anti-Semitism, with which the Arabs had nothing to do; therefore, they should not be required to pay the costs of remedying it. In Arab and Islamic countries Jews suffered none of the terrible treatment that Western Jews had suffered. On the contrary, the Muslims in general and the Arabs in particular treated their religious and ethnic minorities with full equality and enabled both Christians and Jews to take part in public life, to rise to high positions of state, and, in recent times, to become full members of the modern and secular Arab nation living in its various states. The Jews living in the Arab and Muslim countries, moreover, did not take part in the Zionist movement. They even actively opposed it and did not want to emigrate to Israel. That most of them eventually did so the Arabs attribute to the machinations of Israel working with corrupt Arab rulers who were “stooges of imperialism.”

After the 1948 war Arab propaganda added an important new claim: since the Jews wanted Palestine empty of Arabs, they used the opportunity of the war to systematically expel the indigenous Arab population wherever they could do so. Some Arab writers, and others favorable to their cause, have gone so far as to claim that the war itself was set off in December 1947 by the Jews in order to create the right circumstances for the mass expulsion of Palestinian Arabs from their homeland.

Until the mid-1960s the Arab claims were usually presented as part of the ideology of Arab nationalism. Palestine was (and ideologically speaking still is) considered part of the greater Arab homeland and the Palestinians part of the greater Arab nation. The aim of the Arab struggle was to preserve the Arab character of Palestine from the Jewish-Zionist threat. The Palestinian case was at best secondary when it was made at all. Only since the middle of the 1960s and particularly after 1967 has the distinctively Palestinian component become relatively stronger among the factors that shape the identity of the Palestinian Arabs.

Jews, and Zionists especially, developed their own myths about Palestine. First they interpreted ancient Jewish history according to the ideology of modern nationalism, equating the old Israelite and Judean kingdoms with modern nation-states. The Maccabean revolt and the period of Hasmonean rule were seen as typical manifestations of the struggle for modern national liberation. During the years when most Jews lived in exile, it was argued, they always kept a separate national identity: they never converted of their free will to another religion, and they preserved the memory of their ancestral land, to which they always hoped to return. Indeed, against all odds, some never left.

Special emphasis was put on this last group. Every bit of evidence that could be found, however trivial it may have been, was used to prove the continuity of the Jewish presence in Eretz Israel and to show that it was central to the life of Jews in exile. Very little was said of the Muslims who meanwhile had become the great majority of the population and the masters of the land. The Zionists argued that Jewish identity and the yearning to return to Palestine were strengthened by the persecutions of the Jews in all parts of the world, including the Islamic and Arab countries.

The return itself was mainly perceived as a matter of Jewish resolve to establish a homeland, which required struggle against Palestine’s foreign rulers—the Ottoman Empire first, and then the British Mandate. The Arab population was not presented as a major obstacle since, it was said, it was so small. Palestine during the late Ottoman and early British periods was portrayed as a barren land, hardly inhabited, whose tiny Arab population consisted mostly of wandering Bedouin tribes whose presence was only temporary.

According to the Zionist myth, only modern Jewish colonization brought about the economic development of Palestine and improved the hard conditions there. These developments, it was said, attracted poor Arabs from the stagnant neighboring countries. Their numbers grew faster than the Jewish immigrants because the malicious British authorities always encouraged them to come and did much to help to absorb them, both economically and legally.

The 1948 war, the Jewish argument continues, erupted because the Arabs rejected the UN partition plan although it offered them much more land than they deserved. And since most of the Palestinian Arabs were in fact aliens, they quickly left the country to return to their permanent homelands. Only the persistent refusal of the rulers of the Arab countries prevented them from being absorbed there. The Jewish refugees from the Arab countries were, on the other hand, cared for and rehabilitated. The result was an “exchange of populations” which should have been confirmed in a political agreement; only Arab intransigence has kept this from taking place.

Both the Arab and the Jewish myths I have described have circulated widely for years. Nothing in either of them is new or revolutionary. The more extreme you were in your Zionist beliefs the more thoroughly you propagated the Jewish mythology. What is surprising is that Joan Peters still writes as if the Zionist myths were wholly true and relevant, notwithstanding all the historical work that modifies or discredits them. The surprise is even greater when one considers her claim to have done original research in the historical archives and even to have discovered “overlooked ‘secret’ (British) correspondence files” in the Public Record Office in London, among other sources of “neglected” information. Indeed, by looking for the “right” evidence and by reading documents selectively one can “prove” virtually anything. But substituting Jewish-Zionist myths for Arab ones will not do. Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history.

I will deal here only with the main historical questions raised in Mrs. Peters’s book. No doubt, as she claims, the Jews in Muslim countries were neither regarded nor treated as fellow countrymen and equal citizens. Islam protected their lives and most of their religious rights but also kept them in a distinctively inferior position. Legally, their status was defined by the famous “Covenant of Umar,” which listed the various restrictions and special taxes imposed on the “people of the book.”

But the true historical situation cannot be described simply by referring to that covenant, as Mrs. Peters does, or by citing the occasions and places where its provisions were most severely carried out. There was better and worse treatment, and local considerations usually influenced the policy pursued by various rulers. It is typical of Mrs. Peters’s methods that she largely overlooks the position of the Jews under the Ottoman Empire—one of the most important phases of all Islamic history. The reason would seem a simple one: the attitude of the Ottoman authorities toward the Jews was generally fair and decent, and in some parts of the empire many Jews held prominent positions.2 This could not be squared with her description of the oppression of Jews under Islam. (The few references Mrs. Peters makes to the Ottoman rulers emphasize their “anti-Jewish” activities and give a distorted impression of conditions under the Ottomans.)

Part of Mrs. Peters’s confusion derives from her misunderstanding of Zionist history. Zionism was basically a modern secular ideology and movement, a response to the situation of European Jews after their emancipation early in the nineteenth century. Although they had been promised equality as fellow citizens many of them found themselves rejected. That they were ready to adopt their countries’ languages and cultures and sometimes even religions did not help them. Instead of—or in addition to—being rejected on religious and cultural grounds, as they had been since the end of the eleventh century, they were now rejected racially. Zionism offered an alternative. Its ideologists stressed that although in the post-emancipation period most Jews had stopped practicing their religion, they still remained a corporate unit, a distinct people. In order to safeguard their national identity and defend themselves from anti-Semitism the Jews had to return to their ancestral land, restore their national independence, and revive their language and culture.

This position was directly opposed both to the traditional religious attitude of waiting for the Messiah and to the belief in God’s miraculous intervention in history that produced such false messianic movements as Shabbetai Zevi’s. Because Zionism was predominantly a European and secular phenomenon, many Oriental Jews in the Middle East and North Africa have never felt at ease with it and have tried to derive their own sense of Jewish history and identity. In Israel, under the guidance of the former Israeli minister of education, Zevulun Hammer, they have formulated a new Zionism that belittles the ideological and political revolution of European secular Zionism and argues that Theodor Herzl and the Zionist organization had hardly any effect on Jewish history. According to this interpretation Zionism began with Abraham and has been continued by practically all the Jews who have come to the Holy Land, whether to spend their old age and be buried there, or to engage in study or in business. All these are now regarded as Zionists in Oriental Jewish religious circles.

Most historians now consider this view as in fact the opposite of Zionism, but, astonishingly, it has been adopted in its entirety in Mrs. Peters’s book without any serious discussion of its implications. What seems to have been decisive for Mrs. Peters is that the conception fits the myth of Oriental and religious Jewish history she has adopted: since in her view Oriental Jews were always persecuted, they must always have been active Zionists. For her there was no fundamental difference between, on the one hand, a prayer to return to Zion made in Wilna or Marrakesh or the messianism of Shabbetai Zevi, and, on the other, a modern movement that actively organized immigration, established youth organizations, and launched a political struggle for getting political rights in Palestine.

Much of Mrs. Peters’s book argues that at the same time that Jewish immigration to Palestine was rising, Arab immigration to the parts of Palestine where Jews had settled also increased. Therefore, in her view, the Arab claim that an indigenous Arab population was displaced by Jewish immigrants must be false, since many Arabs only arrived with the Jews. The precise demographic history of modern Palestine cannot be summed up briefly, but its main features are clear enough and they are very different from the fanciful description Mrs. Peters gives. It is true that in the middle of the nineteenth century there was neither a “Palestinian nation” nor a “Palestinian identity.” But about four hundred thousand Arabs—the great majority of whom were Muslims—lived in Palestine, which was divided by the Ottomans into three districts. Some of these people were the descendants of the pre-Islamic population that had adopted Islam and the Arabic language; others were members of Bedouin tribes, although the penetration of Bedouins was drastically curtailed after the mid-nineteenth century, when the Ottoman authorities became stronger and more efficient.

As all the research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. Until the 1850s there was no “natural” increase of the population, but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced and modern hospitals were established, both by the the Ottoman authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries. The number of births remained steady but infant mortality decreased. This was the main reason for Arab population growth, not incursions into the country by the wandering tribes who by then had become afraid of the much more efficient Ottoman troops. Toward the end of Ottoman rule the various contemporary sources no longer lament the outbreak of widespread epidemics. This contrasts with the Arabic chronicles of previous periods in which we find horrible descriptions of recurrent epidemics—typhoid, cholera, bubonic plague—decimating the population. Under the British Mandate, with still better sanitary conditions, more hospitals, and further improvements in medical treatment, the Arab population continued to grow.

The Jews were amazed. In spite of the Jewish immigration, the natural increase of the Arabs—at least twice the rate of the Jews’—slowed down the transformation of the Jews into a majority in Palestine. To account for the delay the theory, or myth, of large-scale immigration of Arabs from the neighboring countries was proposed by Zionist writers. Mrs. Peters accepts that theory completely; she has apparently searched through documents for any statement to the effect that Arabs entered Palestine. But even if we put together all the cases she cites, one cannot escape the conclusion that most of the growth of the Palestinian Arab community resulted from a process of natural increase.

The Mandatory authorities carried out two modern censuses, in 1922 and 1931. Except for some mistakes committed in 1922 in counting the Negev Bedouins, which were corrected in 1931, the returns showed the strength of the “natural process” of increase. The figures for the last years of the mandate are based on continuous collection of data by the department of statistics. These figures showed that in 1947 there were about 1.3 million Arabs living in Palestine.

The strength of the process of natural increase was finally proved not elsewhere but in Israel itself. In 1949 there were about 150,000 Arabs in Israel within the 1949 armistice lines. To that number, one has to add the 20,000-odd refugees who returned to the state as part of the government’s scheme for the “reunion of families.” The Israeli authorities cannot be blamed, as the British “imperialists” were, for helping the Arabs enter the country. And despite the strict control of Israel’s borders, the number of Arabs living in Israel proper has more than trebled since. The rate of the Israeli Arabs’ natural increase rose sharply (between 1964 and 1966 it reached the world record of 4.5 percent a year) and brought about the remarkable increase in the size of that community. No Egyptians, Bedouins, Syrians, Bosnians, etc. were needed.

No one would doubt that some migrant workers came to Palestine from Syria and Trans-Jordan and remained there. But one has to add to this that there were migrations in the opposite direction as well. For example, a tradition developed in Hebron to go to study and work in Cairo, with the result that a permanent community of Hebronites had been living in Cairo since the fifteenth century. Trans-Jordan exported unskilled casual labor to Palestine; but before 1948 its civil service attracted a good many educated Palestinian Arabs who did not find work in Palestine itself. Demographically speaking, however, neither movement of population was significant in comparison to the decisive factor of natural increase.

Most serious students of the history of Palestine would accept that the number of Arab refugees from Israel during and after 1948 claimed by Arab and UN sources—some 600,000 to 750,000—was exaggerated. It is very easy to refute that estimate and many have already done it. Very few historians would accept the claim that all of the refugees, or even most of them, were deliberately expelled by the Israelis any more than they would accept the Israeli counterclaim that all left of their own accord. Mrs. Peters has gone to great lengths to collect the statements made by Arabs in which they admit that the Palestinian Arab refugees left Palestine because they expected Arab military victory, after which they intended to return. Nevertheless, although she admits that in sporadic instances Arabs were expelled, she ignores evidence of Israeli intentions to expel them. I would like to draw her attention to one document which proves that the Haganah did in certain circumstances have such an intention.

As historians of the 1948 war know well, the Haganah prepared in March 1948 a strategic plan (the Dalet or “fourth” plan) to deal with the imminent invasion of Palestine by the Arab countries. A major aim of the plan was to form a continuous territory joining the lands held by the Jewish settlements. The plan clearly states that if Arab villages violently opposed the Jewish attempt to gain control, their populations would be expelled. The text was first made public in Israel in 1972 as an appendix to the last volume of the semiofficial History of the Haganah.

I do not know why Mrs. Peters overlooked this important document. That the plan existed, of course, is not in itself evidence that it was carried out. Neither, however, is the admission of the Syrian leader Khalid al-Azm that the Arab countries urged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their villages until after the victory of the Arab armies final proof that the Palestinian Arabs in practice heeded that call and consequently left. Since Mrs. Peters supposedly took the trouble to read Khalid al-Azm’s Arabic memoirs, she at least should have consulted the appendix of the History of the Haganah‘s last volume.^3

Mrs. Peters puts great emphasis on the claim that during and after the 1948 war an “exchange of populations” took place. Against the Arabs who left Palestine one had to put, in her view, about the same number of Jews, most of them driven by the Arab rulers from their traditional homes in the Arab world. And indeed there is a superficial similarity between the two movements of population. But their ideological and historical significance is entirely different. From a Jewish-Zionist point of view the immigration of the Jews of the Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was the fulfillment of a national dream—the “ingathering of the exiles.” Since the 1930s the Jewish Agency had sent agents, teachers, and instructors to the various Arab countries in order to propagate Zionism. They organized Zionist youth movements there and illegal immigration to Palestine. Israel then made great efforts to absorb these immigrants into its national, political, social, and economic life.

For the Palestinian Arabs the flight of 1948 was completely different. It resulted in an unwanted national calamity that was accompanied by unending personal tragedies. The result was the collapse of the Palestinian community, the fragmentation of a people, and the loss of a country that had in the past been mostly Arabic-speaking and Islamic. No wonder that the Arabs look at what happened very differently. When Mrs. Peters argues, as many Israeli and pro-Israeli spokesmen once did, that all refugees should live and be rehabilitated in their new countries, the Arabs reply that all refugees should go back to their countries of origin. When, in 1976, they invited former Jewish citizens to return, they did so not only from the mistaken belief that Oriental Jews’ attachment to Israel was weak, but also from the need to refute the Israeli argument, now repeated forcefully by Mrs. Peters, that there was a symmetry between the two movements of population.

By stressing and strengthening the claim of symmetry Mrs. Peters plays, at least from an ideological point of view and certainly against her own wishes, into the hands of Arab propaganda. Many Israeli agents in such Arab countries as Iraq, Yemen, and Morocco made courageous efforts to bring about the aliyah (ascendance, the usual Hebrew word for immigration to Israel) of the Oriental Jews of Arab countries. Did this dangerous work count for nothing? Were the immigrants merely ordinary refugees and not people ascending to Zion? By attempting to equate the Arab refugees with the Jewish immigrants, Mrs. Peters, in my view, tarnishes a heroic chapter in Zionist history.

Mrs. Peters’s use of sources is very selective and tendentious, to say the least. In order to strengthen the impression that the “hidden hand” of history somehow brought about the reasonable solution of exchange of Jewish and Arab populations, Mrs. Peters evidently wanted to show that the concept had an honorable lineage. She quotes an “Arab leader” who talked of a population exchange in a leaflet distributed in Damascus in 1939, and gives his name as Mojli Amin. I challenge any reader to identify this “leader.” He is not mentioned in any of the books on Syria I know of, although I have read many. And if some wholly unimportant writer made such a statement, how can any serious importance be attached to it? But beyond that, I think that the leaflet is a fake. During the spring of 1939 internal dissent was at its most intense among the factions of the militant Palestinian Arabs, which included anti-British rebels, anti-Jewish rebels, and the “Peace Companies,” which opposed rebellion. In Damascus, where the headquarters of the rebels were located, faked leaflets were often distributed in order to add to the dissension. I suspect that this leaflet was another example of the same literary genre. If Mrs. Peters had more thoroughly investigated the files of the Arab section of the political department of the Jewish Agency, she would, I hope, have seen why the evidence she cites should be used more cautiously.

One flawed source was not enough, however. Mrs. Peters claims that “the British had proposed the exchange of ‘Arab population in Palestine’ for Jews elsewhere.” If one looks for the evidence for this claim, one suddenly realizes that “the British” are none other than William Ormsby-Gore (not yet Lord) who had privately supported the idea. It is odd to conclude from this that “the British” supported such an idea, all the more so when one recalls that when Ormsby-Gore served as British colonial secretary in charge of Palestine he never used his official position to promote that idea as such. The only exchange of populations he officially envisaged was to have been a part of the 1937 partition plan that allocated 15 percent of Palestine to the Jews and recommended that the Arabs be forcibly removed from the territory on which the proposed Jewish state would be founded.

If Mrs. Peters had spent more than “weeks” in the Public Record Office (the official British archives) or if she had read the relevant historical research she would have known that a similar offer was brought to the members of the British cabinet but rejected. We now know that between 1939 and 1941 Churchill favored a diplomatic initiative that would have included the transfer of the Palestinian Arabs to a federal Arab state under Ibn Saud. He had been convinced that such a transfer was desirable by Chaim Weizmann, who had discussed the possibility with H. St. John Philby. Churchill presented a version of Weizmann’s proposal to his colleagues on May 19, 1941. He succeeded only in provoking a hostile reaction on the part of the foreign secretary, Anthony Eden, who made his famous pro-Arab speech of May 29, 1941, in reaction to Churchill’s proposition. Several days afterward Eden’s speech was endorsed by the British cabinet. So much for the “British” origins of the concept of exchange of populations.

Of course there was no separate state called Palestine before the British Mandate and there is no need to demonstrate this at length, as Mrs. Peters tries to do. Nonetheless a large majority of Muslim Arabs inhabited the land; and the desire to keep it that way was the goal of the Arab struggle in Palestine against the Jews and the British. Of what possible significance, therefore, is Mrs. Peters’s claim that Arab domination of Palestine after its conquest by the Muslims in 635 AD lasted only twenty-two years? Was the land empty of any population? Such a vague claim is typical of many others made in the book. What is more surprising is the authority on which it is based. We are told that a statement to this effect was made in February 1919 to the Paris Peace Conference by “the Muslim chairman of the Syrian delegation.” An innocent reader would take it that this delegation was representing the Arab population of Syria, who were then struggling for independence. In fact the delegation was organized by the French as a device to oppose the nationalist struggle, and its chairman would have said anything required by his masters. Whether the Palestinian Arabs saw their identity as having local roots or whether they saw themselves more as part of the larger Arab world, they undoubtedly wanted Palestine to remain Arab. That the name of the country in Arabic, as in most other languages, is derived from the name of the Philistines does not matter to them any more than the fact that the name of Jerusalem, even in Hebrew, is derived from the Jebusees. All such terminological claims, and there are plenty of them in Mrs. Peters’s book, are worthless.

Mrs. Peters puts forward yet another familiar Zionist argument—which has the advantage of being true—that already in the nineteenth century Jews made up the majority in Jerusalem, Safed, and Tiberias. But if we say that having a majority is the key factor in determining the national character of any given town or area, why not apply this principle, the Arabs may ask, to the land as a whole?

Surprisingly enough, Mrs. Peters does just this when she implies that in 1893 the Jews were virtually the majority community in the parts of Palestine where Jews had settled. Her very tendentious reasoning on this point has already been exposed.4 What she has done, to put it briefly, is to compare the figures for non-Jews in the 1893 Ottoman census of Palestine with the estimate of the Jewish population proposed by the French geographer Vital Cuinet in 1895. She dismisses the Ottoman figures for the Jews because, she says, “the Ottoman Census apparently registered only known Ottoman subjects; since most Jews had failed to obtain Ottoman citizenship, a representative figure of the Palestinian Jewish population could not be extrapolated from the 1893 Census.”

This may sound plausible, until one discovers, first, that Cuinet’s estimates are generally considered to be unreliable, and, second, that Professor Kemal Karpat of the University of Wisconsin, whose analysis of the Ottoman census Peters relies on, does not find the census estimate of the Jewish population to be inaccurate in the way she claims. (Even with the numbers that she does arrive at, incidentally, Mrs. Peters does not make a case for a Jewish majority. Although she argues there were more Jews than Muslims or Christians—59,500 as compared to 56,000 and 38,000—there were more Muslims and Christians than Jews by her own account.)

If the Arabs had indeed been as few as Mrs. Peters claims, one wonders why the letters, official reports, diaries, and essays of the early Zionist settlers—the “Lovers of Zion”—from the last two decades of the nineteenth century were filled with references to the Arabs surrounding them everywhere in Palestine. Those writings were collected many years ago and published by Asher Druyanov.5 Republished several years ago they are now easily accessible, but apparently not for Mrs. Peters. Similarly, she has overlooked two of the most important articles by Jewish writers dealing with the Arab problem, which even around the turn of the century troubled the Jewish immigrants to Palestine. The first was written in 1891 by Ahad Ha’am, perhaps the greatest modern Jewish thinker, and was called “Truth from Palestine”; the second, called “Hidden Question,” was written in 1907 by Y. Epstein and published in Ha-Shiloah. Both writers exhorted their fellow Jews in Palestine to take seriously the large Arab population and its feelings; the Ottoman Empire might go, they wrote, but the Arabs would remain. Anyone who believes Mrs. Peters’s book would have to conclude that these distinguished writers, a philosopher and an educator with close experience of life in Palestine, had simply invented the existence of the many Arabs there.

I am reluctant to bore the reader and myself with further examples of Mrs. Peters’s highly tendentious use—or neglect—of the available source material. Much more important is her misunderstanding of basic historical processes and her failure to appreciate the central importance of natural population increase as compared to migratory movements. Readers of her book should be warned not to accept its factual claims without checking their sources. Judging by the interest that the book aroused and the prestige of some who have endorsed it, I thought it would present some new interpretation of the historical facts. I found none. Everyone familiar with the writing of the extreme nationalists of Zeev Jabotinsky’s Revisionist party (the forerunner of the Herut party) would immediately recognize the tired and discredited arguments in Mrs. Peters’s book. I had mistakenly thought them long forgotten. It is a pity that they have been given new life.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives...ne/?page=1



I don't know what you meant about Finkelstein but he's like one of the leading scholars on the conflict, lol.
http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/finkelstein.html
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/9/it_..._amount_of
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...micfreedom
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?c...&aid=17925
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/pdf/dep...ersity.pdf
http://www.chomsky.info/books/power01.htm



Honestly man, I haven't had much time to sit at the PC lately and that's why I'm not dropping references, it's a pain in the ass to copy-paste and shit on the phone, but if you're interested I will more stuff like this. Ignore the bullshit in these articles (the threat of Iran, for example, HAHA), but the sheer number of secular people who still feel entitled to this land, to gaining it through destroying another people's. It's not because they're some crazy motherfuckers who think God gave them this land, again, I can drop Herzl and the zionist congress stuff, the secular politicians in both Israel and the U.S. that don't care about religious connections and still claim that ethnic Jews are entitled to colonize a populated land at the expense of it's native inhabitants. I'm really just ignoring you cause I've put in the time to look into this stuff, it's just not even a question. Again, you can look at things like resources, why do they leave so many pieces of the West Bank if there is biblical motivation for securing that land? There are crazy motherfuckers that call for the entire land, till the Jordan River and shit. Where are they? If they're so influential on policy, these crazy fucking assholes, why are just the resources and strategic areas taken in the West Bank?

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Thanks given by: TheMythOfSisyphus
12-24-2011, 08:27 PM (This post was last modified: 12-24-2011 08:43 PM by 1871.)
Post: #45
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
ha ha ha

Well thats the longest 'ignoring you' I have read. lol.

Funnily enough your articles proved - not disproved the point.

Quote:He expressed messianic Zionism in saying the "Messiah will come to earth only after the temple is rebuilt and made ready for him," so Jews must assure it's done. These views are prominent in high places and throughout Israeli society; that is, religious fervor for a Greater Israel for Jews only, a Jewish state excluding all Arabs with violence an acceptable tool to remove them, and conflict will continue until they're gone.

You asked the question 'Why the West Bank?'

Theres a process of increased immigration and increased birth rate and increased movement from wealthier Israel to poorer Israel - in which case Palestinians are pushed out as they are on the bottom rung - check out those photos in the last post I made - they tell MORE than all of the text being posted combined.

You should know of the Degel HaTorah and the Agudat Yisrael and their influence in the Knesset http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Tora...m#Ideology and the creation of the West Bank as an haredi {?} Jewish/religious concept. Of course Likud hold the reigns of power but their policy is informed by the religious.

Quote:According to Ynet, the Government of Israel spent more money per capita on Jewish West Bank settlements that it does on development towns within Israel proper. The government gave $83 per capita to the average Israeli town, $168 per capita for development towns (poor, often remote towns within Israel proper that the government is trying to turn into strong regional centers), and $260 per capita for settlements on the West Bank and Golan Heights in what are called balance grants, which are blocks of money given by the central government to cities and towns to help them balance their budgets.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_...m-234.html

Secularists - those who like to think of themselves as liberal only hang on to the coatr tails of the religious who pave the way, who lead and who formulate the policy. In fact secularists are the worst kind of hypocrites since they claim they are secular while its the religious who have set the agenda. You can deny this all you want, but the evidence in the ancient scriptures is there.
Jews did not make their 'holy land' in Belgium lol - they made it in the promised land.

The West Bank is incorporated into that concept on religious grounds;

Quote:The illegal Israeli settlement enterprise in the West Bank has reached detrimental proportions. Since 1990 the number of settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem has increased by 109%, reaching over 580,000 people. In 1972 the settler population was just 12,403. The jurisdiction area of settlements covers over 40% of the West Bank despite only accounting for 3% of built up areas. Over 50% of settlements are now populated by national religious and ultra-orthodox Jewish settlers, concentrated in the districts of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Qalquilya, Salfit, Tubas, Ramallah, Nablus and Hebron. The growing political power of the right heavily influences the settlement enterprise. Religious settlers are increasingly becoming an autonomous group, able to wield violent force and exhibiting a high birth rate. The combination of demographic advantages, political power and a capacity for violence severely threaten any prospect of long-term disengagement of illegal settlements. This is in addition to an extremist ideological stance which also hinders any attempts domestically and internationally to withdraw settlers. The geographical location of religious settlements in the heart of the West Bank effectively nullifies the concept of a two state solution.

http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies...ordID=2236

Quote:See also: Population statistics for Israeli West Bank settlements

As of July 2009, 304,569 Israelis were living in 121 officially-recognised settlements in the West Bank and 192,000 Israelis were living in East Jerusalem. As of 2009, there were 102 unauthorized outposts in the West Bank
1 including Sinai
In addition to internal migration, in large though declining numbers, the settlements absorb annually about 1000 new immigrants from outside Israel. In the 1990s, the annual settler population growth was more than three times the annual population growth in Israel.[26] Population growth has continued in the 2000s.[27] According to the BBC, the settlements in the West Bank have been growing at a rate of 5–6% since 2001.[11]

As of 2009, the total number of Israeli settlers was 516,569. This figure includes settlers in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_set...#West_Bank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Tora...m#Ideology

You would know that Jabotinskys views regarding the Arabs - supposedly a tenet of the Irgud was rarely adhered to. Youd also know that Begin always dressed up the religious aspect for Conservative Jews who didnt like to think of themselves as fundamentalists but were always pro-religion - and religious at the heart, whether or not they called themselves 'secular' (which was only to show that they could appeal to a 'constituency - see photographs) . What is the 'homeland' but the Hebrew promised land ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrews

Quote:The origin of the term remains uncertain.[2] The biblical word Ivri (Hebrew: עברי), meaning to traverse or pass over, is usually rendered as Hebrew in English, from the ancient Greek Ἑβραῖος and Latin Hebraeus. In the plural it is Ivrim, or Ibrim.

In Genesis 10:21 Shem, the elder brother of Japheth and first son to Noah is referred to as the father of the sons of Eber (עבר), which may have a similar meaning.

Some authors believe Hebrew/Ibri denotes the descendants of the biblical patriarch Eber (Hebrew עבר), son of Shelah, a great grandson of Noah and an ancestor of Abraham,[3] hence the occasional anglicization Eberites.

The term has not been found in biblical or extra-biblical sources for any tribe or nation other than Abraham and his descendants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrews

Begins 'citizens of the Hebrew homeland' in 1948....

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7VBoV...&q&f=false

When you mention about the 'coalition of secular and religious';

Netanyahu (to Rabin) ;

“You said the Bible is not our land registry. I [Netanyahu] say: The Bible is our registry, our mandate, our proof of ownership.”

As for your 'resources' comment/ What are they? Gravel? Quarries?

btw 1 - re-red the post re Herzl - I already showed a quote from his diaries concerning his modus operandi privately in contrast to what he said publicly.

btw 2 - I was addressing Laz re the Finkelstein quote.
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Thanks given by: TheMythOfSisyphus
12-25-2011, 01:53 AM
Post: #46
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
I'm not ignoring you, lol, clearly. I said I wasn't going to read a whole bunch of shit that you think shows zionist expansion is based off religious motives. The resources I'm talking about would be like the one from the New York Review of Books demolishing this shit about religious beliefs dominating zionist motivations through the years. The review is about the Joan Peters book ("From Time Immemorial"), it addresses some of the things you're saying.

Quote:Part of Mrs. Peters’s confusion derives from her misunderstanding of Zionist history. Zionism was basically a modern secular ideology and movement, a response to the situation of European Jews after their emancipation early in the nineteenth century. Although they had been promised equality as fellow citizens many of them found themselves rejected. That they were ready to adopt their countries’ languages and cultures and sometimes even religions did not help them. Instead of—or in addition to—being rejected on religious and cultural grounds, as they had been since the end of the eleventh century, they were now rejected racially. Zionism offered an alternative. Its ideologists stressed that although in the post-emancipation period most Jews had stopped practicing their religion, they still remained a corporate unit, a distinct people. In order to safeguard their national identity and defend themselves from anti-Semitism the Jews had to return to their ancestral land, restore their national independence, and revive their language and culture.

This position was directly opposed both to the traditional religious attitude of waiting for the Messiah and to the belief in God’s miraculous intervention in history that produced such false messianic movements as Shabbetai Zevi’s. Because Zionism was predominantly a European and secular phenomenon, many Oriental Jews in the Middle East and North Africa have never felt at ease with it and have tried to derive their own sense of Jewish history and identity. In Israel, under the guidance of the former Israeli minister of education, Zevulun Hammer, they have formulated a new Zionism that belittles the ideological and political revolution of European secular Zionism and argues that Theodor Herzl and the Zionist organization had hardly any effect on Jewish history. According to this interpretation Zionism began with Abraham and has been continued by practically all the Jews who have come to the Holy Land, whether to spend their old age and be buried there, or to engage in study or in business. All these are now regarded as Zionists in Oriental Jewish religious circles.

Most historians now consider this view as in fact the opposite of Zionism, but, astonishingly, it has been adopted in its entirety in Mrs. Peters’s book without any serious discussion of its implications.



Other references would be people like Finkelstein who have gone through the record meticulously to provide official statements and documents which speak on the motives of policy makers. Or the Orthodox Rabbis that reject (today and during the last 100 years) the connection between zionism and Judaism (God is supposed to deliver them to Israel, remember?). Or the serious considerations of other locations around the world (what the fuck does Argentina have to do with the Bible?), by early zionist leaders. Or maybe the rejection of zionism, creating Israel, by religious Jews all over the world (it was actually a problem they were trying to solve for many years, religious Jews just weren't interested) before WWII. I mean, dude, it's not my first time looking into this shit, lol, I've been reading about it since I was 15 or something. Again, I'm on the phone so it's not even worth trying to drop shit right now but I will over the next few days. Just don't cry about "walls of text". lol

I don't know why you keep talking about Herzl lying and stuff, like what, was he a closet Orthodox Jew or something? lol, maybe you're mistaking the "Jewish identity" thing, "Jewishness"?
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/2.277/her...s-1.287922

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01-08-2012, 08:14 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2012 08:48 PM by 1871.)
Post: #47
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
Not at all.

I have shown you that Herzl said one thing n public and another in private and provided you with evidence of this from Herzls own diary which contradict his public pronouncements. Go back and read them. Also follow the links. Its clear that you are not even bothering to read the evidence presented to you - and YOU HAVE SAID AS MUCH YOURSELF;

Quote:Shakur

I said I wasn't going to read a whole bunch of shit that you think shows zionist expansion is based off religious motives.

Zionism may have attempted to dress itself up in the language of secularism - but its nonsense. You only have to check through the sources - which you clearly refuse to do.

This is why they can say that although they follow the Biblical idea of the chosen people returning to the chosen land they are essentuially a political/secular movement. So there is a difference between 'Zion' and 'Zion.................................................ISM' lol

This is why Finklestein has to practice contortions and even misrepresent Ghandhi. What Ghandi actually said (quite different from Finklesteins contortion was ;

Quote:If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest Gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment. And for doing this I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance, but would have confidence that in the end the rest were bound to follow my example. If one Jew or all the Jews were to accept the prescription here offered, he or they cannot be worse off than now. And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy [...] the calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the God-fearing, death has no terror - Ghandi .

which we now know - and even should have been known then - is an idiotic pronouncement.

so lets take some of the comments in the review that you have posted and show how false it is;

Quote:..........and defend themselves from anti-Semitism the Jews had to return to their ancestral land, restore their national independence, and revive their language and culture.

The ancestral land is the promised land and the holy land as seen by the Jews. And here we are using earliest texts - not recent gullible revisionism which doesnt question the validity of the claim of Zionism as a secular movement - which doesnt stand up to scrutiny. Infact the above review is completely specious and wholly inaccurate in that it dishonestly attempts to write out of the Zionist movement the guiiding religious component which was integral to it and where religious Zionists were at the forefront !

Quote:The term "Zionism" coined by Austrian Nathan Birnbaum, was derived from the German rendering of Tzion in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890

De Lange, Nicholas, An Introduction to Judaism, Cambridge University Press (2000), p. 30. ISBN 0-521-46624-5.

QUOTE:

Zion (Hebrew: ציון‎) (also transliterated Sion, Tzion or Tsion) is a place name often used as a synonym for Jerusalem.[1][2] The word is first found in Samuel II, 5:7 dating to c.630-540 BCE. It commonly referred to a specific mountain near Jerusalem (Mount Zion), on which stood a Jebusite fortress of the same name that was conquered by David and was named the City of David. The term Tzion came to designate the area of Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and later became a metonym for Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem and generally, the World to Come.

In Kabbalah the more esoteric reference is made to Tzion[3] being the spiritual point from which reality emerges, located in the Holy of Holies of the First, Second and Third Temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsion

end
Samuel;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.

end

Quote:The Books of Samuel (Hebrew: Sefer Sh'muel ספר שמואל‎) in the Jewish bible are part of the Former Prophets, (Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings - the sequence of books in the Old Testament is identical, with the addition of Ruth), a theological history of the Israelites affirming and explaining the Torah (God's law for Israel) under the guidance of the prophets.

Samuel begins by telling how the prophet Samuel is chosen by Yahweh, the god of the Israelites, at his birth. The story of the Ark which follows tells of Israel's oppression by the Philistines, which brings about Samuel's anointing of Saul as Israel's first king. But Saul proves unworthy and God's choice turns instead to David, who defeats Israel's enemies and brings the Ark to Jerusalem. God then promises David and his successors an eternal dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Samuel

Quote:Genesis 15

New International Version (NIV)



Genesis 15

The LORD’s Covenant With Abram
1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:
“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,[a]
your very great reward.

2 But Abram said, “Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d] be.”

6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

7 He also said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”

8 But Abram said, “Sovereign LORD, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”

9 So the LORD said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”

10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the LORD said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— [b]19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” [b]

This is a quote from the review you quoted above;

Quote:Because Zionism was predominantly a European and secular phenomenon, many Oriental Jews in the Middle East and North Africa have never felt at ease with it and have tried to derive their own sense of Jewish history and identity. In Israel, under the guidance of the former Israeli minister of education, Zevulun Hammer, they have formulated a new Zionism that belittles the ideological and political revolution of European secular Zionism and argues that Theodor Herzl and the Zionist organization had hardly any effect on Jewish history. According to this interpretation Zionism began with Abraham and has been continued by practically all the Jews who have come to the Holy Land, whether to spend their old age and be buried there, or to engage in study or in business. All these are now regarded as Zionists in Oriental Jewish religious circles.

and again - it is crap. Totally bad 'scholarship' if you can call it that - because it completely omits and therefore misrepresents the driving force behind Zionism in Europe;

Quote:Judah ben Solomon Chai Alkalai (1798 – October 1878) was a Sephardic rabbi in Zemun in the Austrian Empire's District of Velika Kikinda (in present day Serbia) and one of pioneers of modern Zionism.

Alkalai studied in Jerusalem under different rabbis and came under the influence of the Kabbalah. In 1825 he became Rabbi of Semlin.

He became noted through his advocacy in favor of the restoration of the Jews to Palestine. By reason of some of his projects, he may justly be regarded as one of the precursors of the modern Zionists such as Theodor Herzl.

Herzl's paternal grandfather Simon Loeb Herzl, reportedly attended the Alkalai's synagogue Semlin and the two frequently visited. Grandfather Simon Loeb Herzl "had his hands on" one of the first copies of Alkalai's 1857 work prescribing the "return of the Jews to the Holy Land and renewed glory of Jerusalem." Contemporary scholars conclude that Herzl's own implementation of modem Zionism was undoubtedly influenced by that relationship.[2][citation needed]

His work, Goral la-Adonai (A Lot for the Lord), published at Vienna, in 1857, is a treatise on the restoration of the Jews, and suggests methods for the betterment of conditions in Palestine.

After a somewhat able homiletical discussion of the Messianic problem, in which he shows considerable knowledge of the traditional writers, Alkalai suggests the formation of a joint-stock company, such as a steamship or railroad trust, whose endeavor it should be to induce the sultan to cede Palestine to the Jews as a tributary country, on a plan similar to that on which the Danube principalities were governed.

To this suggestion are appended the commendations of numerous Jewish scholars of various schools of thought. The problem of the restoration of Palestine was also discussed by Alkalai in Shema' Yisrael (Hear, O Israel), 1861 or 1862, and in Harbinger of Good Tidings (compare Jewish Chronicle, 1857, p. 1198, where his name is spelled Alkali).

In his Shalom Yerushalayim (The Peace of Jerusalem), 1840, he replies to those who attacked his book, Darhei No'am (The Pleasant Paths), which treated of the duty of tithes. Another work, Minchat Yehudah (The Offering of Judah), Vienna, 1843, is a panegyric on Montefiore and Crémieux, who had rescued the Jews of Damascus from a blood libel accusation

Quote:[b]Zvi Hirsch Kalischer.


Zvi (Zwi) Hirsch Kalischer (March 24, 1795 - October 16, 1874) was an Orthodoxrabbi and one of Zionism's early pioneers in Germany.



Life

Kalischer was born in Lissa (Leszno) in the Prussian Province of Posen. Destined for the rabbinate, he received his Talmudic education from Jacob of Lissa and Rabbi Akiva Eiger of Posen. After his marriage he left Lissa and settled in Toruń, where he spent the rest of his life. Here he took an active interest in the affairs of the Jewish community, and for more than forty years held the office of Rabbinatsverweser ("acting rabbi"). Disinterestedness was a prominent feature of his character; he refused to accept any remuneration for his services. His wife, by means of a small business, provided their meager subsistence.

Works

In his youth he wrote Eben Bochan, a commentary on several juridical themes of the Shulkhan Arukh, Choshen Mishpat (Krotoschin, 1842), and Sefer Moznayim la-Mishpat, a commentary, in three parts on the whole Choshen Mishpat' (parts i. and ii., Krotoschin and Königsberg, 1855; part iii. still in manuscript). He also wrote: Tzvi L'Tzadik (צבי לצדיק) glosses on the Shulkhan Arukh, Yoreh De'ah, published in the new Vilna edition of that work; the Sefer ha-Berit[1] commentary on the Pentateuch; the Sefer Yetzi'at Mitzrayim commentary on the Passover Pesach Haggadah; Chiddushim on several Talmudical treatises; etc. He also contributed largely to Hebrew magazines, as Ha-Maggid, Tziyyon, Ha-'Ibri, and Ha-Lebanon.

Views on the re-settlement of the Land of Israel

Inclined to philosophical speculation, Kalischer studied the systems of medieval and modern Jewish and Christian philosophers, one result being his Sefer Emunah Yesharah an inquiry into Jewish philosophy and theology (2 vols., Krotoschin, 1843, 1871); an appendix to volume 1 contains a commentary (incomplete) on Job and Ecclesiastes. In the midst of his many activities, however, his thoughts centered on one idea: the settlement of the Land of Israel by Jews, in order to provide a home for the homeless Eastern European Jews and transform the many Jewish beggars in the Holy Land into a population able to support itself by agriculture.

He began writing in the Ha-Levanon Hebrew (at that period, a renovated language) monthly magazine. In 1862 he published his book Drishat Tzion on this subject, including many quotes from his commentaries in the Ha-Levanon magazine..

He proposed:

1.To collect money for this purpose from Jews in all countries;
2.To buy and cultivate land in Palestine;
3.To found an agricultural school, either in Palestine itself or in France; and
4.To form a Jewish military guard for the security of the colonies.

He thought the time especially favorable for the carrying out of this idea, as the sympathy of men like Isaac Moïse Crémieux, Moses Montefiore, Edmond James de Rothschild, and Albert Cohn rendered the Jews politically influential. To these and similar Zionist ideals he gave expression in his Derishat Zion (Lyck, 1862),[4] containing three theses:

1.The salvation of the Jews, promised by the Prophets, can come about only in a natural way — by self-help;
2.Colonization in Palestine;
3.Admissibility of the observance of sacrifices in Palestine at the present day.

The appendix contains an invitation to the reader to become a member of the colonization societies of Palestine.

The second part of the book is devoted to speaking to "the nations" who believe in the bible and the prophets, and persuading them, that this new course in history is a logical one, and that they too can hope for the salvation of the Jewish nation as part of the salvation of the entire world.

This book made a very great impression, especially in the Eastern Europe. It was translated into German by Poper (Toruń, 1865), and a second Hebrew edition was issued by N. Friedland (ib. 1866). Kalischer himself traveled with indefatigable zeal to various German cities for the purpose of establishing colonization societies. It was his influence that caused Chayyim Lurie, in Frankfort-on-the-Main in 1861, to form the first society of this kind, and this was followed by others.

Owing to Kalischer's agitation, the Alliance Israélite Universelle founded the Mikveh Israel agricultural school, the rabbinate of which was offered to him, but he was too old to accept it. Although all these endeavors were not attended with immediate success, Kalischer never lost hope. By exerting a strong influence upon his contemporaries, including such prominent men as Heinrich Grätz, Moses Hess (see Rome and Jerusalem, pp. 117 et seq.), and others, he is considered to have been one of the most important of those who prepared the way for the foundation of modern Zionism.

Rabbi Kalischer and Glasner and many others.

Quote:Rabbi Glasner's independence as a thinker was also manifested in his early support for Zionism (almost unique among the Hungarian Orthodox rabbinate). A founder of Mizrachi (religious Zionism), he became personally close to Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, especially after taking up residence in Jerusalem in 1923. His independence and especially his outspoken Zionism led to his estrangement from many of his rabbinical colleagues in Hungary. After the First World War, he increased his efforts in support of the Zionist enterprise. His "Zionism in the Light of the Faith" is the primary source for his philosophy of Zionism. He sharply criticized his colleagues in the Hungarian rabbinate for denying the national aspect of Judaism while proclaiming themselves to be nothing more than Hungarians of the Mosaic faith. Judaism had a national component which could only be realized once Jewish life in its full national character had been restored in the Holy Land. In 1921 he represented Mizrachi at the 12th World Zionist Congress in Carlsbad, and he undertook many speaking tours on behalf of the Zionist cause. Hia outspoken support of Zionism caused extreme elements of the Orthodox community in Klausenburg to break away from the community that he had headed for over 40 years. In 1923, Rabbi Glasner retired from his position as chief rabbi and was succeeded by his son, Rabbi Akiva Glasner. In his farewell address to his community at the Klausenburg train station as he embarked on his journey to Palestine, he implored his listeners to follow him to Palestine while they were still able to do so, because he greatly feared that a time would come when they would want to leave Europe to go to Palestine but then would no longer be able.

Quote:1 Samuel 8

Israel Asks for a King
1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[a] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.
4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[b] us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”

Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”



The Land of Israel (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל‎‎ ʼÉreṣ Yiśrāʼēl, Eretz Yisrael) is the Biblical name for the territory roughly corresponding to the area encompassed by the Southern Levant, also known as Canaan and Palestine, Promised Land and Holy Land. The belief that the area is a God-given homeland of the Jewish people is based on the narrative of the Torah, especially the books of Genesis and Exodus, as well as the Prophets. According to the Book of Genesis, the land was promised by God to the descendants of Abraham through his son Isaac and to the Israelites, descendants of Jacob, Abraham's grandson. A literal reading of the text suggests that the land promise is (or was at one time) one of the Biblical covenants between God and the Israelites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IDF_so...fillin.jpg

Btw - regarding the review of Joan Peters book - I can go through this line by line as Ive studied Josephus, the Ottoman Empire and the early texts so that could go in its own thread and its accuracy, or lack thereof, can be held up to scrutiny.
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Thanks given by: TheMythOfSisyphus
01-08-2012, 08:54 PM
Post: #48
RE: ISRAELI HISTORIAN: ISRAEL COULD FIND ITSELF FORCED TO WIPE OUT EUROPE
Ok, so first of all, you say Finkelstein misrepresents Gandhi, lol. Google "Finkelstein Gandhi" and see what you get. That quote you dropped about the Jews in Germany is exactly how Finkelstein represents Gandhi's views.

Second, you're claiming that "ancestors" can be used to demonstrate a religious lineage? Ok, sure, maybe my "Muslim ancestors" would agree with you on that, but I doubt Arabs would.

Third, I'm dropping mainstream press, Finkelstein, Chomsky, etc. You're dropping Wikipedia - when you do drop sources for your quotes. Enough said.

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"...If the rhetoric is essential to the philosophy, then there is something wrong with the philosophy. Your massive intellect should be able to describe your philosophy without continually referring to your special rhetoric..."
- Yael The Great
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