Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

**Mushr00m** · 06-21-2010, 08:08 PM

I'd just like to start off saying this forum is great. This forum (while lurking in the background) and Immortal Techniques music has definitely broadened my outlook on life. I love what (most) of you guys are doing on here. But I have a feeling I won't get along with some of you, and here's why:

I joined the U.S. Army about a month ago. I ship out in September for my One Station Unit Training (Basic and AIT combined) as a 19D, which is a Cavalry Scout.

Wikipedia Wrote:The Cavalry Scout, is a job title in the United States Army. Cavalry Scouts work to obtain, distribute and share vital combat and battlefield information on the enemy and on combat circumstances and environmental conditions. The role originated with the United States Cavalry.
The job of a Cavalry Scout is to operate as one of the first personnel in an area, provide forward reconnaissance and spotting for the U.S. Army, and find and relay key information about the enemy to commanders and leaders in the field. Their duties include assisting with observation and listening posts, gathering reconnaissance information, performing and helping with navigation, and helping secure and transport ammunition. The Cavalry Scout leads, serves, or assists as a member of scout crew, squad, section, or platoon in reconnaissance, security, and other combat operations.

I'll save you the Google search lol...

Anyway I joined the Army because I hated being institutionalized and doing the same thing every day at a college. I wen't to one of the best business schools in the country, but dropped out. I didn't join the Army to kill people, or because I am a war mongering freak. I joined the Army (despite what a lot of you might say) to serve my country. Although a lot of people don't agree with what we are doing over in Iraq and Afghanistan and believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, I tend to disagree TO AN EXTENT. I think we should have been out of there a long time ago, but I do agree with the initial invasion. Although I said I am not a war monger and that I didn't join to kill people, I agree with eliminating the Taliban and Al Quaeda by any means necessary. I understand civilians have (and will most likely continue) to be killed. But that is war. There is not a war in history where civilians haven't been killed, and that is still every pacifists counter argument.

Also I have seen some posts saying soldiers are "robots" programmed to follow orders and kill and do whatever their command tells them. While as an enlisted soldier that may be true, a real soldier would never go against the U.S. Constitution. If a revolution were to break out because of an oppressive government (lol), a real soldier would never fire into a crowd of his own people he swore to protect. A real soldier would grab his government issued weapon and use it to fight against the oppressive state.

Some of you are anti-Army and I know I cannot change your views, but I hope I can help you understand that not every soldier is a bad soldier. The Army (like any other organization) has it's goods, bads, and uglies.

Debates always welcome, but I don't know if the Intro thread is the right place for this. If not we can always talk through PM. However, I don't condone flaming and name-calling. Everyone has a right to his/her own view.

Well, now that I told you a little about myself, and why I took the initiative to actually register, I hope I can make some good friends, and learn much much more.

Sorry for this huge block of text, but I had a lot on my mind :idea:

**Gezus** · 06-21-2010, 09:12 PM

Welcome to the forum. My best friend join the army too. he had always wanted to be a sniper but he decided he rather stay away from killing people so he signed up for some staff position filing paper work and stuff. and since he is his mother's only son his mother had something signed saying he won't have to go into the war... anyways welcome. and enjoy yourself.

Peace,
-- Gezus23

**Mushr00m** · 06-21-2010, 09:20 PM

(06-21-2010 09:12 PM)Gezus23 Wrote: Welcome to the forum. My best friend join the army too. he had always wanted to be a sniper but he decided he rather stay away from killing people so he signed up for some staff position filing paper work and stuff. and since he is his mother's only son his mother had something signed saying he won't have to go into the war... anyways welcome. and enjoy yourself.

Peace,
-- Gezus23

Thanks for the welcome. I have a brother, so my mother couldn't sign that. I wouldn't want her to anyway. I really feel like if I get deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan I could make a difference. I don't want to be just another soldier who is looked at as a killer. I really do want to help people.

**Boboulas** · 06-21-2010, 10:07 PM

Your ability to help people is extremly restricted. Lets be honest here your goal over there is no kill people, thats the goal of any soldier. You add justification in afterwards. I dont dislike soliders, i just dont understand that with all the information about how fucking destructive your government is, how you could possible serve it.

The army isnt the main force of help for people over there, its the charities and humanitarian groups.

**Mushr00m** · 06-21-2010, 10:11 PM

(06-21-2010 10:07 PM)Boboulas Wrote: Your ability to help people is extremly restricted. Lets be honest here your goal over there is no kill people, thats the goal of any soldier. You add justification in afterwards. I dont dislike soliders, i just dont understand that with all the information about how fucking destructive your government is, how you could possible serve it.

The army isnt the main force of help for people over there, its the charities and humanitarian groups.

What about the suicide bombers blowing up innocent women , men, and children? The Taliban who use children as human shields? They aren't freedom fighters, they are a terror organization. If helping the people means killing these savages, then so be it, that is what I will do. I guess people also tend to forget the Army has built schools, playgrounds, and youth centers for children...

**shakur420** · (This post was last modified: 06-22-2010 06:06 AM by shakur420.)

Wow, great intro thread. I'd love to discuss a few things you pointed out.

(06-21-2010 08:08 PM)Mushr00m Wrote: I joined the Army (despite what a lot of you might say) to serve my country. Although a lot of people don't agree with what we are doing over in Iraq and Afghanistan and believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, I tend to disagree TO AN EXTENT. I think we should have been out of there a long time ago, but I do agree with the initial invasion. Although I said I am not a war monger and that I didn't join to kill people, I agree with eliminating the Taliban and Al Quaeda by any means necessary. I understand civilians have (and will most likely continue) to be killed.

Let me start with your mention that you joined the army to "serve your country", and you believe that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are justifiable and necessary in order to eliminate al qaeda and the Taliban. I have 2 questions for you, 2 things I'd like to hear your perspective on.

Before I ask though, it might be helpful to throw in a bit of background so you can understand where I'm coming from, my logic. Keep in mind I have some minimal experience with cadets. I know all about the chain of command and what soldiers are trained to do when they do not agree with orders. They must comply. This is how they are trained, and this is the usual practice. There are thousands of accounts, testimonials, records of this throughout history. Your own police forces have been caught on tape hitting, killing, oppressing the public. Riot police have slaughtered people on your own soil because they were given orders to "shoot first and ask questions later". This is documented, recorded. You think the army is different? I know some people in the armed forces that would disagree with you.

The Taliban and al qaeda were born out of resistance to foreign occupation. They were funded and trained by the U.S. government and armed forces. These are not "conspiracy theories", they are documented facts. When they claim that they are defending their land and people, it makes sense because there are foreign troops on their soil. If you tell me that you are defending your country, but all of your troops are on foreign soil, it doesn't make too much sense, does it? Keep in mind that however many lives were lost on 9/11, millions have been put to death by the American soldier. They are more justified in attacking your country than you are justified in attacking theirs. It's very simple if you have done the research.

My lack of respect or sympathy for those who wear a military uniform for any country/group engaged in an offensive operation stems from the fact that it is 2010. In today's day and age, it is incomprehensible that someone is not aware of the nature of the government they are supporting with arms. In most countries. Of course, in Palestine, they might not have as much available access to the internet, libraries, TV, etc. But in Canada, U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. There is no excuse not to know for who it is you are killing/dieing for. And just so people are clear (not just you, everyone else too). I'm not "anti-army", or pacifist by any means. I just have not encountered one government that I trust enough to kill or die for. In fact, they have proven time and time again that they are not trustworthy, undemocratic and serve the rich. Ever heard of the song "Fortunate Son" by CCR?

And if you think that Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded to "eliminate al qaeda and the Taliban", then I'm inclined to say that you have not even begun to research the situation. There are economic and stabilization issues that go back decades. Oil, of course, is one of these issues, but there are other economic and political needs that far outweigh the profits of the oil cartels. There are regions/countries that need to remain politically and economically stable in order for many other states to continue operating as they do. There are countries that need to remain permanently unstable as well. This the nature of global politics. The Romans did it 2000 years ago. Babylonians did it before them. After the U.S. has "vanished from the page of time", there will be other superpowers that will do the same. These are the issues that are being addressed by the invasions. It's not "conspiracy theories", it's documented fact that is never denied by government officials, serious commentators or respected scholars. You just need to look past CNN for your history lesson.

So, my questions....

1. Do you feel that blindly following the orders of military leaders who are paid to implement political decisions/strategies is serving your country, or serving your country's politicians?

2. Your country (along with others) attacked and murdered the families and destroyed the homes of al qaeda and Taliban members and countless civilians in the years before 9/11. People around the world have suffered casualties in the millions over the last few decades at the hands of the American soldier. You hold the position that "collateral damage" is acceptable in war. You feel justified in killing the children of a people to achieve a political goal. Why, then, do you feel al qaeda and the Taliban are not justified as well, to fight your oppression and murder by disregarding civilian casualties as "collateral damage"?

Welcome to the forums, by the way. A lot of us love to have different perspectives around, gives us something to talk about. And as long as you stay respectful, most of us will to. I don't mean to take away from the point of your intro, but as Jack McCoy would say "...he opened the door judge..." lol

peace

**Gezus** · 06-21-2010, 10:22 PM

(06-21-2010 10:14 PM)shakur420 Wrote: Wow, great intro thread. I'd love to discuss a few things you pointed out.

(06-21-2010 08:08 PM)Mushr00m Wrote: I joined the Army (despite what a lot of you might say) to serve my country. Although a lot of people don't agree with what we are doing over in Iraq and Afghanistan and believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, I tend to disagree TO AN EXTENT. I think we should have been out of there a long time ago, but I do agree with the initial invasion. Although I said I am not a war monger and that I didn't join to kill people, I agree with eliminating the Taliban and Al Quaeda by any means necessary. I understand civilians have (and will most likely continue) to be killed.

Let me start with your mention that you joined the army to "serve your country", and you believe that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are justifiable and necessary in order to eliminate al qaeda and the Taliban. I have 2 questions for you, 2 things I'd like to hear your perspective on.

Before I ask though, it might be helpful to throw in a bit of background so you can understand where I'm coming from, my logic. Keep in mind I have some minimal experience with cadets. I know all about the chain of command and what soldiers are trained to do when they do not agree with orders. They must comply. This is how they are trained, and this is the usual practice. There are thousands of accounts, testimonials, records of this throughout history. You're own police forces have been caught on tape hitting, killing, oppressing the public. Riot police have slaughtered people on your soil because they were given orders to "shoot first and ask questions later". This is documented, recorded. You think the army is different? I know some people in the armed forces that would disagree with you.

The Taliban and al qaeda were born out of resistance to foreign occupation. They were funded and trained by the U.S. government and armed forces. These are not "conspiracy theories", they are documented facts. When they claim that they are defending their land and people, it makes sense because there are foreign troops on their soil. If you tell me that you are defending your country, but all of your troops are on foreign soil, it doesn't make too much sense, does it? Keep in mind that however many lives were lost on 9/11, millions have been put to death by the American soldier. They are more justified in attacking your country than you are justified in attacking theirs. It's very simple if you have done the research.

My lack of respect or sympathy for those who wear a military uniform for any country/group engaged in an offensive operation stems from the fact that it is 2010. In today's day and age, it is incomprehensible that someone is not aware of the nature of the government they are supporting with arms. In most countries. Of course, in Palestine, they might not have as much available access to the internet, libraries, TV, etc. But in Canada, U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. There is no excuse not to know for who it is you are killing/dieing for. And just so people are clear (not just you, everyone else too). I'm not "anti-army", or pacifist by any means. I just have not encountered one government that I trust enough to kill or die for. In fact, they have proven time and time again that they are not trustworthy, undemocratic and serve the rich. Ever heard of the song "Fortunate Son" by CCR?

And if you think that Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded to "eliminate al qaeda and the Taliban", then I'm inclined to say that you have not even begun to research the situation. There are economic and stabilization issues that go back decades. Oil, of course, is one of these issues, but there are other economic and political needs that far outweigh the profits of the oil cartels. There are regions/countries that need to remain politically and economically stable in order for many other states to continue operating as they do. There are countries that need to remain permanently unstable as well. This the nature of global politics. The Romans did it 2000 years ago. Babylonians did it before them. After the U.S. has "vanished from the page of time", there will be other superpowers that will do the same. These are the issues that are being addressed by the invasions. It's not "conspiracy theories", it's documented fact that is never denied by government officials, serious commentators or respected scholars. You just need to look past CNN for your history lesson.

So, my questions....

1. Do you feel that blindly following the orders of military leaders who are paid to implement political decisions/strategies is serving your country, or serving your country's politicians?

2. Your country (along with others) attacked and murdered the families and destroyed the homes of al qaeda and Taliban members and countless civilians in the years before 9/11. People around the world have suffered casualties in the millions over the last few decades at the hands of the American soldier. You hold the position that "collateral damage" is acceptable in war. You feel justified in killing the children of a people to achieve a political goal. Why, then, do you feel al qaeda and the Taliban are not justified as well, to fight your oppression and murder by disregarding civilian casualties as "collateral damage"?

Welcome to the forums, by the way. A lot of us love to have different perspectives around, gives us something to talk about. And as long as you stay respectful, most of us will to. I don't mean to take away from the point of your intro, but as Jack McCoy would say "...he opened the door judge..." lol

peace

^ HOLY MOTHER OF PEACE... that was long and totally worth reading. great post bro.

and i saw this discussion coming the second i say his avatar >.>

**Mushr00m** · (This post was last modified: 06-21-2010 10:51 PM by Mushr00m.)

(06-21-2010 10:14 PM)shakur420 Wrote: Before I ask though, it might be helpful to throw in a bit of background so you can understand where I'm coming from, my logic. Keep in mind I have some minimal experience with cadets. I know all about the chain of command and what soldiers are trained to do when they do not agree with orders. They must comply. This is how they are trained, and this is the usual practice. There are thousands of accounts, testimonials, records of this throughout history. You're own police forces have been caught on tape hitting, killing, oppressing the public. Riot police have slaughtered people on your soil because they were given orders to "shoot first and ask questions later". This is documented, recorded. You think the army is different? I know some people in the armed forces that would disagree with you.

I see where you are coming from. Enlisted soldiers are trained to follow orders and not question them. Even disobeying an order in the battlefield is grounds to be killed (in extreme cases) or court marshaled and discharged in most cases. I really can't argue with this, because it is the truth. However, I can stand up for myself and say that I would never EVER obey orders to kill innocent civilians, deployed or in the United States. I'd rather be killed on the spot or discharged. This goes completely against my morals.

The Taliban and al qaeda were born out of resistance to foreign occupation. They were funded and trained by the U.S. government and armed forces. These are not "conspiracy theories", they are documented facts. When they claim that they are defending their land and people, it makes sense because there are foreign troops on their soil. If you tell me that you are defending your country, but all of your troops are on foreign soil, it doesn't make too much sense, does it? Keep in mind that however many lives were lost on 9/11, millions have been put to death by the American soldier. They are more justified in attacking your country than you are justified in attacking theirs. It's very simple if you have done the research.

In fact, my uncle told me this exact same thing yesterday. While I can agree to an extent, some facts are being left out. The U.S. funded Osama bin Laden and his resistance fighters to rid of the Russian occupation. I can honestly say, we did the right thing. The way Russia was handling Afghanistan was horrible. However, after the Russian occupation was driven out, Osama and his regime tried to expand. Using the arms we gave them they tortured people and made the citizens lives hell. The strict Sharia law that was implemented was far beyond what the U.S. wanted. So we sent a "hit squad" to essentially kill the top leaders of Al Quaeda. Of course, we failed, and gained a new enemy, Al Quaeda. We created the problem, we need to destroy it.

My lack of respect or sympathy for those who wear a military uniform for any country/group engaged in an offensive operation stems from the fact that it is 2010. In today's day and age, it is incomprehensible that someone is not aware of the nature of the government they are supporting with arms. In most countries. Of course, in Palestine, they might not have as much available access to the internet, libraries, TV, etc. But in Canada, U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. There is no excuse not to know for who it is you are killing/dieing for. And just so people are clear (not just you, everyone else too). I'm not "anti-army", or pacifist by any means. I just have not encountered one government that I trust enough to kill or die for. In fact, they have proven time and time again that they are not trustworthy, undemocratic and serve the rich. Ever heard of the song "Fortunate Son" by CCR?

While I did not sign up to fight for corporations like Halliburton and other oil companies, I have already posted why I joined. I am fighting for the people who died on 9/11, for the people who died in Madrid, for the people who were killed in the London subway bombings, for the men, woman, and children who were killed by the Taliban or Saddam's use of chemical weapons. I am not just fighting for my country, I am fighting for the people. I agree in a sense with you. I absolutely do not trust our government 100%, but there are trade offs that come with the job. I serve the government, but I (hopefully) get to do what I joined to do.

And if you think that Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded to "eliminate al qaeda and the Taliban", then I'm inclined to say that you have not even begun to research the situation. There are economic and stabilization issues that go back decades. Oil, of course, is one of these issues, but there are other economic and political needs that far outweigh the profits of the oil cartels. There are regions/countries that need to remain politically and economically stable in order for many other states to continue operating as they do. There are countries that need to remain permanently unstable as well. This the nature of global politics. The Romans did it 2000 years ago. Babylonians did it before them. After the U.S. has "vanished from the page of time", there will be other superpowers that will do the same. These are the issues that are being addressed by the invasions. It's not "conspiracy theories", it's documented fact that is never denied by government officials, serious commentators or respected scholars. You just need to look past CNN for your history lesson.

I agree that we are also there to take control of oil. I do not like the fact that that is why we are there, but I have other motives for joining which I explained up above.

So, my questions....

1. Do you feel that blindly following the orders of military leaders who are paid to implement political decisions/strategies is serving your country, or serving your country's politicians?

I feel that nowadays I would be serving the country's politicians. I really can't argue this. Do I like it? No. Would I love to try and change it? Absolutely. That is the truth, and we can't argue the truth.

2. Your country (along with others) attacked and murdered the families and destroyed the homes of al qaeda and Taliban members and countless civilians in the years before 9/11. People around the world have suffered casualties in the millions over the last few decades at the hands of the American soldier. You hold the position that "collateral damage" is acceptable in war. You feel justified in killing the children of a people to achieve a political goal. Why, then, do you feel al qaeda and the Taliban are not justified as well, to fight your oppression and murder by disregarding civilian casualties as "collateral damage"?

I don't mean to justify the killing of civilians by any means, and if that is how it came off, then I apologize. I just mean that civilians die in war, and that is the cold hard truth. If you show me a war where civilians weren't killed, then I will show you my pet unicorn. Civilians die, and that is not what most soldiers want. Despite how the media portrays them. I also understand there are soldiers who intentionally kill civilians, well, they deserve whatever comes their way. Soldiers do not use children as human shields, or force people to strap on a suicide vest to kill whoever it is you are fighting. What I mean is that the Taliban and Al Quaeda take the killing of civilians to a whole new level, and do it intentionally. How many civilians do you think have been killed as a result of bombings in a suicide bombing at a market occupied by NO U.S. soldiers compared to the number of civilians killed by U.S. and coalition forces? Rhetorical question, because we both know the answer to that. Their false jihad that is waged in the name of their god is pure propaganda. You are a knowledgeable man, and I'm sure you know that the quran does not tell muslims to do these acts of violence. The terrorists spin the truth, as do our politicians (because I know that might be brought up so I thought I would acknowledge it now lol).

Welcome to the forums, by the way. A lot of us love to have different perspectives around, gives us something to talk about. And as long as you stay respectful, most of us will to. I don't mean to take away from the point of your intro, but as Jack McCoy would say "...he opened the door judge..." lol

Thanks for the welcome, and I look forward to speaking more with you. I absolutely plan to stay respectful. Everyone deserves to have their own views and beliefs. Just because we have different beliefs doesn't mean we should hate each other. And no worries, I encourage people to challenge everything I say, as I love hearing others.

peace

**Boboulas** · 06-21-2010, 11:03 PM

Quote:What about the suicide bombers blowing up innocent women , men, and children?

There is 1 way to stop terrorism, answer the grievences. You think the taliban would be able to fight on as long as they do if alot of the country didnt support them?

Quote:The Taliban who use children as human shields?

I know its disgusting, now there is actualy a chance to do good with the taliban no longer in power.

Quote:They aren't freedom fighters, they are a terror organization.

The taliban is an ideology. They have alot of support in afganistan and pakistan otherwise they wouldnt exist.

Quote:If helping the people means killing these savages, then so be it, that is what I will do.

In most cases, people join the taliban because they have a greivence with the invaders.

Quote:I guess people also tend to forget the Army has built schools, playgrounds, and youth centers for children...

And in the process killed hundreds of thousands??? Im sure the afganis really appreciate it.

**Mushr00m** · (This post was last modified: 06-21-2010 11:15 PM by Mushr00m.)

Boboulas, the ONLY reason the Taliban still have supporters is because the U.S. and Coalition Forces are still killing civilians. I understand we need to minimize civilian casualties, and so does the government (because they know the more civilians that are killed, the more the locals will oppose our occupation).

Boboulas Wrote:And in the process killed hundreds of thousands??? Im sure the afganis really appreciate it.

I never said they did nor didn't appreciate it. A building, some desks, and some books cannot replace the cost of 1 human life, but it's better than not trying to help at all.

**Boboulas** · 06-21-2010, 11:21 PM

The US presence itself is building supporters. People dont want to be under the rule of a foreign army, if the US actualy cared about the people of afganistan they would support democratic organisations instead of gunning down people who have nothing left to lose.

The recent ellections were a sham and the country is allready reverting back to warlord control, which was worse than anything the taliban could ever conseve.

**Mushr00m** · (This post was last modified: 06-21-2010 11:27 PM by Mushr00m.)

(06-21-2010 11:21 PM)Boboulas Wrote: The US presence itself is building supporters. People dont want to be under the rule of a foreign army, if the US actualy cared about the people of afganistan they would support democratic organisations instead of gunning down people who have nothing left to lose.

The recent ellections were a sham and the country is allready reverting back to warlord control, which was worse than anything the taliban could ever conseve.

We gun them down, because they gun down our soldiers. I am aware the U.S.'s interests are not in the people, but mine are, and I hope you can understand that. I agree with what you say about the elections. In all honesty, let the people choose what kind of government they want. I am certain they won't pick the Taliban, and I'm not too sure about democracy. I just don't think democracy can strive in a nation so torn with no structure.