Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

**Asshole** · 08-18-2011, 11:47 PM

lets make this debate clear, neither side has a proposed solution, or anyway to measure our disagreement. what would you do with these individuals?

**lookleftdude** · 08-19-2011, 12:01 AM

Indeed, we are all idiots with a God complex, which is why I found the idea that I am living in some sort of fantasy land and he isn't, to be a little offensive, because we are all living in a fantasy land of equal absurdity.

@Laz: With what individuals? The military? The general population? I don't know yet, and it's possible that I won't ever know, all I think I know is true, is that the mainstream media, the government, and corporations are spreading fear and hate, and I think we are at some level playing into that by being afraid and hateful, if we get people to come together against that, and there is enough Love to change something, there will be a revolution when the people see what is being done to them. Other than that, I have no idea what I would do with these people, because I wouldn't want to be in control, I'd want them to do what they would if they were acting on the good of their soul out of Love for their people. Unfortunately I'm stupid enough to be an Anarchist, so I would want people to form small cells, and do what they do against the powers that be, without any kind of hierarchy.

**1871** · (This post was last modified: 08-20-2011 10:36 PM by 1871.)

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: @Shakur: Your points would be inarguable to me if the US military men and women are there actually shooting and attacking civilians, but in general that is not the case at all.

The fact that you make such a statement shows that you are in denial and therefore inapable of gaining further enlightenment towards the knowledge and love you claim to aspire to.

**lookleftdude** · 08-19-2011, 12:20 AM

@1871: Either what you said made no sense at all, because simply responding to someone's statement in opposition to my ideas does in fact create progress, I think. Maybe not immediately, but maybe in the future I or the person who participated will change their minds, and you seem to think that your idea is the undeniable truth. OR, I am an even bigger idiot than I thought, and I need to spend more time learning about the theories of Love and Knowledge. I'd like to think the first, but I really am not sure what you are trying to say haha. You think because I debate that I am in denial of the idea of Love? I can still disagree with someone I Love, I can still have negative feelings, Love is not really confined to those smaller feelings, as far as I think I know right now, but I could definitely be wrong about that.

**wise_owl** · 08-19-2011, 12:29 AM

Well Your love for the miltary seems detached from reality to me. Love for the opressors seems illogical to me. Its as if you suffer from stockholm syndrome. It easy to say poor soldiers they dont know any better and we should love them when you aren't directly affected by their opression. Is it really that hard to understand how someone who has to worry about military bombs falling on his neighborhood or a soldier putting a bullet in him or his family has no love for the soldier doing it all?

claiming ignorance as an excuse is a disgrace in the time we live in. They don't know what they are doing? the pain they are causing to civilians? please. So because they feel sorry for killing all those people they are automatically exonerated??? the blood is on their hands and as hard as it is for you to see the surviving family and community members cant show the murders love.

The "terrorists" and rebels they fight only came be to because of the military and their brutal oppression of the people. These groups are the child spawn of the military and its soldiers. its ironic how they claim to be fighting for our good when they themselves created these groups.

I'm sure you wouldn't feel this "love" if the fighting was in your neighborhood. when its your brothers and sisters dieing in front of you. Its easy to preach love when you are so disconnected from the real violence occurring. You need to put yourself in the shoes of the people in the countries the military is invading. I'm sure its hard to do when all you get is a 30 second excerpt in the news with a quick mention of a body toll.

The soldiers and the military drew the line not us. your either on one side or the other because if you just stand on the line you just become another causality with no cause.

Its easy to preach love when your biggest problem is which hand your gonna jerk off with at night. You should leave you little bubble and go to these places pillaged and raped by the military and its soldiers. They show no love because they get no love. trying to survive in a third world country is hard enough without some foreign military shooting and dropping bombs on you because they want to "protect" you and "civilize" you. These military fucks aren't there for the people, they are their for the money and resources and to further extend the power of the government they represent.

I hate when people claim these soldiers have no choice but to join the military. yea right. there is always a choice especially when you live in the united states. you want lack of choices? move to a third world country. These soldiers know what they are signing up for and willingly hand over their body and soul for a few thousand dollars and for a misguided ideal.

Are these people getting murdered by the military supposed to just take it and hope "love" will change it?? I support these groups fighting the military,they fight because of the LOVE they have for their people. they are trying to protect them from the oppressors. When you have a family member killed no reason by the military im sure you'll change your tune. I will never support these armed mercenaries shaking down little countries.

do you really believe 9/11 happened because they were jealous of american ideals and privileges?? no that happened because the U.S was busy fuckin up those middle eastern countries decades before. The military isn't in the middle east because of the people that died. They are there for oil,money,resources, and to keep their sphere of influence intact.
look at Libya now. The united states along with other countries supported gaddafi for years. But as soon as he declared that he was going to nationalize the countries oil industry and other key industries they start jumping and hollering about human rights and human life. They are quick to turn a blind eye when it benefits them. The military might not be directly killing these people in some cases but they are financing the dictatorships that do.

Try having a global perspective instead of the perspective of just the country you live in.

Sorry if my post comes off as rude or aggressive but its a topic i'm very vocal about. I have seen the pain and destruction these military forces cause first hand so its hard for me to see them in any other way. I'm all for love and peace between the people and community but it has to go both ways. I cant love those killing the innocent and oppressing the community. standing on the sidelines only accomplishes so much.

**lookleftdude** · 08-19-2011, 12:44 AM

You are very correct when you say that if I was one of those people, that I would not feel love for these soldiers, that would require a level of wisdom and understanding I think would have to be of miraculous proportions. I would feel angry and hurt just like any other human being, but I am not speaking of a revolution where the result is, I'm talking about revolution at the real cause. Those people are not there for their own oil and such, they are there for the government and corporation's benefit, but they do not know that, most anyway, do not see it that way. Some do, and are fine with it I suppose. I think I've already stated what I can about their views on this subject, so refer back to what I have typed before. I support the groups of men fighting the military as well, because they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, some or most, I cannot say for sure, but I know there must be at least some there doing it for the good of their people. I was talking specifically about a revolution in the "developed world", which is why I was talking of it from that point of view. Yeah, from a global perspective, they are doing evil things, but the military is just the weapon, the man using that weapon is hiding behind it, and you are hating a weapon that does not feel here or there, I'm not trying to stand in the line, I want to everyone to notice that the line is not real when it's on a person to person level.

**shakur420** · 08-19-2011, 02:45 AM

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: @Shakur: Your points would be inarguable to me if the US military men and women are there actually shooting and attacking civilians, but in general that is not the case at all. You are comparing them to people that have no problem harming innocents, and that's not what they are.

That's exactly what they are. Am I supposed to believe that someone joins the military thinking it will be about holding hands, dancing and lollipops? If I join a gang, and then plead ignorance, "I thought I was doing the right thing!", no one will buy it, right? Why then, is it different for the military? I mean the soldiers are being shipped out to a war zone in a foreign country. You make it seem like they are shocked when they get there. Shocked that people are suffering at the hands of the organization they just joined. I could understand if it was UNICEF or something we're talking about. It's not. It's the biggest army in the world which is occupying foreign countries with it's military. I can believe that a lot of soldiers are pretty unaware of geopolitics, resource control, history, all that. Hell, I've been reading about shit for years and I've barely scratched the surface. So I get that maybe they don't understand the pure viciousness of their employers. I get that. But, I'm gonna join the mafia and then be surprised that people get killed? That businesses get burned down? That people get their legs broken? That's surprising? How?

If you've ever seen The Wire, you'll get the example. Long story short, in one plot line, a cargo container full of girls is accidentally sealed. They suffocate. The guys on the dock who were taking a cut to let a few containers go through were absolutely shocked, distressed, upset. They went to the gangster who brings the shipments and they were like "what the fuck?? There were girls in there?? Why didn't you tell us?? We would never have done this shit if we knew there were people inside!!". The gangster just shrugs it off, "yeah, I'm sorry too, I wasn't trynna kill these girls, it breaks my heart, blah, blah, blah". I'm supposed to "love" the guy because he didn't intend for them to die?? Really? He was shipping girls in fucking cargo containers!! What the fuck did he expect? He's trynna sell them off as prostitutes in the first place, but it's Ok, cause he didn't think that they would die? So it's Ok to invade and occupy a foreign country, just as long as ~~civilian casualties~~ collateral damage is minimized? Since when? In what world do these soldiers live? In the one where occupying armies don't make civilians suffer??

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: They are in the Mid East because they want revenge for their people who have died, they are there because they are taught to think these "terrorists" are evil people who are destroying the livelihoods of everyone in the middle east, and they are there to fight for "freedom", or what they think is freedom.

So do they think they can "take revenge" amongst a civilian population using the world's largest military without incurring suffering on the people who live there? They're not capable of basic logic like 1+1=2? I know they are, you know they are. They don't care. They're justified to have some collateral damage because, well hey, that's war, right? I bet they'd have a different perspective if it was their neighbourhood that was turned into a war zone by a foreign military. See, the problem is not their ignorance about geopolitics and shit, their problem is hypocrisy, they don't stop to think about walking in someone else's shoes. Of course it's in their mind, they're not mindless drones, but they choose to ignore that voice in their head that says "I'm killing these people".

Didn't hitler say something about protecting Germans from terrorism and shit in Czechoslovakia?

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: When they do something, they always do everything they can to avoid innocents being involved at all, but they don't really have a choice.

They always "do everything", eh? How about refusing to drop bombs on cities? How about refusing to bring live ammunition into residential areas? How about refusing to break into people's houses with guns at the ready? How about not being involved in the occupation of a foreign population? How about some of those things? Seems like they don't even try to minimize civilian suffering. Unless I'm mistaken and using the military to invade a country, bombs to destroy infrastructure and guns that are shot in civilian neighbourhoods are not expected to harm people. See what I mean about common sense? A soldier might not even believe it's about oil, strategic placement or credibility in the world arena, they might not see those things, but they sure as hell know that bringing a war, guns, bombs and soldiers to a civilian population means that innocent people are going to get hurt. But it's Ok, because we're more than willing to sacrifice those Afghani lives for our own benefit. We'll pay that price. lol, as if those lives belong to us in the first place. This is the problem, hypocrisy, excuses and a refusal to acknowledge the facts. The facts that are obvious to anyone. The problem is not whether they are to blame for the president's actions, whether they are as guilty as the corporations behind them. The problem is that they think it's Ok for them to kill because they're the good guys, without ever caring to look for any evidence. They just assume that they're good guys, because, hey, it's us and that's them.

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: To them, they cannot simply stop fighting these "terrorists" just because they are in a highly populated area, so they go into places they think "terrorists" are at. Most of the time, they spend their days walking around in the streets next to humvees, waiting to get shot at by a "terrorist", usually from on top of a highly populated building that these "terrorists" have chosen to shoot from, and then the military fires back, and invades the building, identifying as many non-combatants as much as combatants as they can.

They have no right to be there. Boo hoo, it's dangerous for them. Good. I hope it is. 5 minutes of reflection, that's all I'm saying. Ask a soldier. Cuba invades the U.S. because it's harbouring terrorists. Cuban soldiers are occupying the entire country. Are Americans supposed to sympathize with the Cuban soldier who talks about his "fear" when on patrol? Are we supposed to accept that the Cuban soldier walking around my neighbourhood, shooting at my people, occupying my country, well, he's got no choice but to shoot at us because, you know, it's dangerous for him out here? Is that what you expect? Like I said, insane. Ask a soldier and ask them how much they would give a fuck about the "remorse" and "anguish" of foreign soldiers occupying their neighbourhood. Ask. Do it. See what they say.

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: These people are taught to put these civilian deaths in their "box"...

Sure, I get it, indoctrination, training and shit. Discipline. I was in Air Cadets for years. I get it. I understand chain of command, discipline, tradition. I get it all. But they could quit. I did when I didn't like my "orders". I told them to fuck off. Literally. I can think for myself because I choose to. We don't live in 1980s Nicaragua where we get our heads chopped off for believing in social spending. We don't live in 1970s Argentina where we disappear if we don't back the right dictator. People don't know that the army kills when they go to join? That civilians are going to suffer when you bomb and invade a country? Like I said, I have a bit more faith in people, I don't think they're that stupid.

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: And about your question of the tables being turned, most of them think that if terrorists were in the US, the general population would not allow them to live and operate among them...

Except that it happens everyday, so... The U.S. is the only country to have been found guilty of the unlawful use of force. Allowing the administration to live in the country after that is akin to allowing terrorists to walk around, unimpeded, no? So, what then? The U.S. committed mass murder in Japan decades ago, what about "harbouring terrorists" then? Did you even look up those names I gave you? You know that bin laden, Noriega, the Contras, were all funded by the U.S.? What then? The U.S. harbours, trains and funds terrorists all the time. It's not a secret. I'm not talking about shit from Bob's Illuminati Site for Fighting the NWO. There's State Department documents, books, commentators, media, the shit is out in the open and has been for a long time. Ahh, but what the U.S. does isn't terrorism, they will say, right? Ok, there are many ways to prove, unequivocally, that it is terrorism and support for it - among far worse things - but the simplest exercise will do. Tell a soldier to look up the term "low intensity conflict" and "soft target". Now ask them to compare that definition to "terrorism". What's the difference? The first 2 terms are legitimate, the latter is not, therefore the former are what you call the actions of the emperor, the latter is reserved for the pirates.

And who are the "terrorists", anyways? The indigenous population that's trying to defend it's country against foreign invasion? Why are they terrorists? Because someone said so? Attacking a soldier explicitly, under any definition of terrorism, makes them not a terrorist. I mean, it's basic common sense. When the colonists began attacking British soldiers, were they "terrorists"? Or were they soldiers? When the Natives attacked the colonizers, were they "terrorists"? Or were they soldiers? So why are the Afghans and Iraqis "terrorists"? Because they're fighting foreign soldiers on their own land??

(08-18-2011 09:13 PM)lookleftdude Wrote: It seems like you're trying to make the military out to be mean, angry people who spend their time killing and raping as a hobby, and that's probably where we are at our biggest disagreement, and I think we may never come to an agreement because of that.
You feel in their soul that they are evil people...

Maybe that's where you misunderstand me. I don't think they're evil, they're just foot soldiers. Like the kid on the block who shoots, robs, kills, and chops heroin to make something for himself. I understand and can sympathize, I can relate. You gotta do what you gotta do. But at least the kid is honest. Yeah, I gotta kill these motherfuckers cause I gotta maintain my credibility, I gotta keep my corner if I wanna make my rent, buy groceries for my crack addicted mother, etc., etc. If that kid turned around and said, "you know when I started dealing heroin, I had no idea that you had to be so vicious, so cold, so violent". I'd smack that kid in the fucking head. For real? You didn't realize that joining a gang, selling drugs on the corner was gonna be a violent endeavour?? lol, yeah, just like, I guess, people who sign up for membership in an army that is occupying foreign populations and are surprised that people are suffering. Wow, what a shocker. Who would've thunk it? Because they're not educated? I didn't graduate high school. Because they're surrounded by the wrong culture? I oppose almost everyone I know on almost every topic. Because they believe they're doing good? Bingo. Like you said, like I said, they know what the fuck they're doing, they simply fell that it's justified, because it's "us" versus "them". Which is true, no doubt, but people who take positions like that without taking the time to look into who "us" and "them" really are, well, how am I supposed to respect those people? Love those people when their actions kill children, leave them homeless, without parents? How the fuck am I supposed to "forgive" them? I have nothing to forgive. They haven't wronged me. It's not my place to forgive or not, but I sure as hell can't "love" them anymore than I can love the pimp who's bringing truckloads of girls into the country, simply to provide for his family, of course, to "sacrifice" for his people, you know.

You don't think I've thought of doing shit? Blowing up a military base, tracking down cops and taking them out one by one, moving to a country and joining a resistance? Things are a bit more complicated now because of family, but I've thought about this shit since I was like 16 or so. Why didn't I do anything? Because I can't trust no one. I can't go into no movement, group or organization without knowing what's up, can I? How the fuck am I supposed to say to someone "I'll follow your orders and kill for you" without know everything about them? What their goals are, how they're going to achieve them, how they're funded, who does what, all that shit. Plus, I'd need autonomy, I'd need to be able to do whatever the fuck I wanted. You know an organization I could join that fits that bill? I don't, so I didn't get with anybody. Gotta find a different way. You can't tell me that joining the army without looking into it, even superficially (like what do armies usually do?), is what people do. They don't even look into it. They don't think for 5 minutes. Think about the real questions. They sit there and think "the army serves my interests by protecting my country". But they don't ask "how does the army serve my interests as a citizen?" They don't ask "how does the army protect my country?" If they asked those questions, they could right away, with common sense, see that the army serves my interests by making sure I live in luxury at the expense of others and it protects my country from those who are pissed off about what we've done to them. This is the oldest historically truth that I can think of - though I ain't no history major or nothing. The rich steal from the poor, the poor get angrier and angrier, so the rich have to make sure that they have a strong army to protect themselves from the backlash. Literally, 5 minutes of thought on the subject, don't see how anyone could miss it, unless they're not being honest with themselves.

(08-19-2011 12:01 AM)lookleftdude Wrote: I'm stupid enough to be an Anarchist, so I would want people to form small cells, and do what they do against the powers that be, without any kind of hierarchy.

We got more in common than you know.

(08-19-2011 12:29 AM)wise_owl Wrote: Is it really that hard to understand how someone who has to worry about military bombs falling on his neighborhood or a soldier putting a bullet in him or his family has no love for the soldier doing it all?

Like, damn, that's what I'm talking about. I'm not a soldier, I'm not a victim. But I can relate to both. Who am I gonna sympathize with? The aggressor or victim? I can put on both shoes, but which ones am I gonna keep? I don't understand how people can just ignore that shit, but that's usually the case, isn't it? When our armies attack those backwards people over there, meh, no biggie. It's when bombs fall on our heads, when we don't know where our next meal comes from, if there's even a hospital around anymore, when we loose our kids, our wives and husbands, that's when people begin to understand. I can't wait till then, cause I understand shit now. I don't see how you gonna join the army without knowing that you're going to go fuck people up - especially when the army is occupying foreign populations.

(08-19-2011 12:44 AM)lookleftdude Wrote: Yeah, from a global perspective, they are doing evil things, but the military is just the weapon, the man using that weapon is hiding behind it, and you are hating a weapon that does not feel here or there...

You might be on to something there. I like that example. But taking that weapon away right now will also help the cause, no? If someone came along and smashed that weapon in my enemy's hands, I'd feel good about that, no? Sure, the fight's not over cause the real enemy (not the weapon) is still there and he'll do what he needs to to find a new weapon, hit me up some other way, but tackling that weapon, and acknowledging that it is a weapon, that's logical right? To feel good that the weapon has been smashed, damaged, is unable to hurt me as much? That's sane, no? Rational?

**psy0nyd3** · (This post was last modified: 08-19-2011 03:59 AM by psy0nyd3.)

I can't resist adding this quote to the subject of U.S. occupations and justifications.

Bill Hicks Wrote:So... First of all this needs to be said: There never was a war...

"how can you say that bill???"

Well... A war is when TWO armies are fighting...

*long pause*

So.. you see right there... I think... We can all agree, it wasn't exactly a war...

Shak's number of received thanks will eventually overtake my entire post count. This thread is a valuable gem. =D

**lookleftdude** · 08-19-2011, 04:27 AM

@shakur: (On a side note; How do you do that multiple quote thing?) No, I don't want you to believe that they think it is a humanitarian effort, but what I would like you to see is that they think it is all the fault of these "terrorists", that all the pain and suffering could've been avoided if it weren't for these "terrorists".

About a year ago I was subject to listening to a speech given by a Lt. Colonel (Not exactly low on the ladder, in case you don't know much about ranks), titled "Just Because We're American". The speech was about these "terrorists" and how they hate us because we fight for freedom, that they hate us because we're christian, that they hate us because we stand up for equal rights for all colors and sexes, and that they hate us because we believe in Democracy. He is not a stupid man, he is just completely delved into the idea that these "terrorists" are just genuinely bad people. I don't know what else I can say about it that I haven't already said to be honest.

I am not on the military's side about what they do, don't get me wrong, I do not think these "terrorists" are really terrorists, I think that there are good and bad all doing what they have to for survival and such, and I hold nothing against them for fighting the military.

It is good that you question everything, but I think it is safe to say that most people do not question anything they don't have to, and lots of people will try as hard as they can not to fall down the rabbit hole, or even acknowledge that there is a rabbit hole, so when you grow up around all of this, and it is thought to be a good thing by millions of people, and your family, and your government, with signs on every corporate window that says "We support our Troops!" (At least it does here, I live near a huge military base), why think any differently? Do we hold it against the masses of people that watch Television and go to their 9 to 5 working for corporations and buy designer clothes made by sweatshops? Aren't they partly to blame to? Aren't they all aiding the real bad guys every day? Yes, and no, we cannot hate everyone that lives in a different world then us, it is never going to help anyone.

Glad to see I'm not the only hopeless romantic for Anarchy.

Lastly, yes, it is very rational to feel a sense of victory when something that hurts you on some level gets what you might think to be revenge. I think I can promise you though, that this weapon we call the US Armed Forces, is nothing close to smashed. Sure, maybe a few scratches here and there, but it is nearly indestructible against civilians forces. It could almost be considered impossible to destroy this weapon that you hate, even in a non lethal war, they have flashlights that override your visual system and makes you fall off balance and puke, they have gel they can put on roads to make it completely unnavigable by normal vehicles or even on foot, they can do more to put untrained humans in their place than a civilian population could even shake a stick at. I mean shit, they have motion sensing security guns that can fire 1,000,000 rounds per minute (An M4 generally shoots around 900 to 1,000 rounds per minute for reference), and that's just shit a civilian knows about, it gets a lot worse. I think the chances of literally fighting that force as regular, untrained civilians, especially in armed conflict, is almost impossible.

**psy0nyd3** · (This post was last modified: 08-19-2011 04:56 AM by psy0nyd3.)

^

Code:

[quote='NameGoesHere' pid='114270' dateline='1313724441]Quoted text goes here.[/quote]

=

(08-19-2011 04:27 AM)NameGoesHere Wrote: Quoted text goes here.

The 'pid'(post ID) and 'dateline' are optional but you can put them in as well by copying the original quote code then putting the end quote code, your response, pasting the original quote code, text to be quoted, end quote code, your response, etc until you've addressed each point individually.

(08-19-2011 04:27 AM)lookleftdude Wrote: Glad to see I'm not the only hopeless romantic for Anarchy.

**Gezus** · 08-19-2011, 04:56 AM

Or you could just click the button to the right of the thumbs up button. The one with the green plus sign.

click that for each post you want to quote.

**psy0nyd3** · 08-19-2011, 04:57 AM

^He means breaking down large posts to address individual points though. So knowing the quote code/what to copy/paste is essential.