At the risk of sounding ridiculous..

[Laz]

well if you are reading, contribute. thats how i got half literate on the shit they post. a lot of it i research as i post, as does most members i assume.

no i think because we would have with retained knowledge of love. but this is all very existentialist and cosmogonist, and frankly, no one has a fraction of the answers. that is very important to remember in debates such as this, do not marry your theories. in all likelihood, they are near completely wrong

discussions like these are the future, at least the only future in which we can survive

[lookleftdude]

(08-17-2011 05:28 AM)Lazarus Amaru Zion Wrote:  well if you are reading, contribute. thats how i got half literate on the shit they post. a lot of it i research as i post, as does most members i assume.

no i think because we would have with retained knowledge of love. but this is all very existentialist and cosmogonist, and frankly, no one has a fraction of the answers. that is very important to remember in debates such as this, do not marry your theories. in all likelihood, they are near completely wrong

discussions like these are the future, at least the only future in which we can survive

Ah, retention, that makes good sense. Hah yeah, that was partly a joke, I understand that I don't know anything about anything, I change my ideas and even ideals often, just a few weeks ago I was ready to mow down "normal people" with an AK because I was angry, now I'm trying to understand that we need to put some love into it, or this just isn't going to work. I was just hoping that I could steal at least a little bit of what other people know, and add it to my tiny fractions, to hopefully give to other people who may have other fractions that we can compare to, like a trading card game of the soul/mind, whatever you want to call it.

[Laz]

shit man. love is what its about. you should know that from the che reference. i understand you weren't going to, but love is it. anything else is unnecessary and eventually, fatal. hubris, fear, jealously, greed, ignorance: that is man's downfall

do not avoid original thought. but do not focus on it. focus on what others have mastered. digest it, caress it, repackage it, remix it. and when original thought does come to you, that is your individualism

[shakur420]

(08-17-2011 03:53 AM)lookleftdude Wrote:  ...the military is generally populated by honest, caring, young individuals who are simply misguided into thinking that what they are doing is right, and they honestly believe with all of their heart that they are doing it in a self sacrificial payment to their people.

Same is likely true for every "member" of al qaeda, the Indonesian army while they were committing genocide, street gangs in poor neighborhoods, Iraqi "insurgents" who plant bombs where civilians might get touched, your neighborhood crack dealer who has a family, Albanian militiamen who carried out attacks with the expectation that they would elicit responsive atrocities against civilians, Germans who were operating death camps, Egyptian soldiers who locked people up and tortured them, IDF members who shoot at kids when they get close to borders used to protect colonists, Afghanis who kill suspected collaborators, and on, and on, and on. So they all get a free pass, huh? "Misguided" and shit, right? They're not responsible for their actions because they're ignorant. It'd be nice if that logic applies to us when we break laws we don't know about, or go and kill someone because we were raised in a gang, or take action after we seen a made-in-USA bomb kill our family. But I guess that level of understanding is reserved only for the respected and honorable military of the largest aggressor on the planet. I wonder if your understanding extends to members of the Syrian army who are, right now, massacring their own population, no doubt thinking that they are making a "sacrifice" for the benefit of their people. lol

I rejected my parents' "traditions" a long time ago. I decided that common sense was a little more important.

(08-17-2011 03:53 AM)lookleftdude Wrote:  Where is the love?

So to answer your question, where is my love? They took it, raped it and burned it when they decided to pick sides. Pick sides against the people. Ignorance might have been a plausible excuse like 50 years ago, 100 years ago, when we didn't have such access to information (I don't even buy that, Mark Twain, Einstein and Russell were vehemently opposed to war), but in 2011? 2000? No excuse. You spend a few years in the military, especially elite squads, and you're gonna tell me these people don't understand that they're participating in causing massive death, destruction and suffering for innocents on behalf of their leaders? lol. Yeah, maybe the "special needs" marines who have the IQ of children. Nah, nevermind, children are smarter than that. Bottom line is, they're aware of what they do, they simply justify it because they think their "side" is entitled to peace and security at the expense of those deemed "collateral damage".

(08-17-2011 03:53 AM)lookleftdude Wrote:  ...I found this person named Danny Shine on the internets (youtube channel -> http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritualentertainer ) who walks around London promoting Love and happiness between strangers, trying to make people smile, and attempting to hug the police that constantly try to stop him from speaking his ideas in public with a megaphone.

Is that the "love police" guy? He was at the G20 in Toronto. Guess what happened to him? Arrested for "impersonating" security forces. The law is weird but all in all, no crime committed. Still arrested.

[lookleftdude]

@shakur420: I understand there are bad things being done, but I have lived in the military community for years, and all I can try to say to defend it is that they really don't know, they sincerely think that what they are doing is the right thing, and yes, I feel the same about all soldiers, including "terrorists". I believe they are doing what they do because they think it is right, wether it is or not isn't up to me to decide, which is why I started questioning my involvement in the military before I enlisted. You are making the assumption that you have chosen the right path, but in reality you can't know that for sure, know one knows the real answer, so you're becoming angry and playing into the idea that it's either "our side" or "their side", my idea is that I'm trying to break that because I think that's what our REAL enemies (the people with all the money that "own the world") want. If we first all learn to love each other, than we can break that unnecessary cycle. I don't want to sound defensive for the civilians the military has killed over in the middle east, but I have seen special operations members come to tears talking about when a civilian was killed either by accident or a simple misunderstanding, and they are confused and burdened by things like that, but I understand there are idiots there willing to shoot anything that moves, but I promise you that is not the majority. When you live in that community you are told every second of every day that what you are doing is good, and it is hard to break away from something like that, it gives you purpose, it is your mother, your father, your brothers and sisters, all of your friends, your job, your lively hood, what you enjoy, what you hate. It is literally everything about you. I hope that you understand what I"m trying to say, don't make those men and women your enemies, their intentions are truly seen in a positive light by their very soul, and very few ever make it out of that. Be angry at the politicians and the corporations telling them that what they are doing is right if you must hate something. If we give them enough love, when there is a revolution, the military will not fight us, and they may even support us, because their existence is not to protect the corporations and the government completely, their own personal ideals are generally for the people, and many of them despise politics and the greed involve. I don't think you understand the level pain that they carry with them when they come home, they are different people after they have done what they have done, and they don't get the right kind of attention to understand that it's a bad feeling, they are taught to literally "put it in your box", I was learning about "the box" while I was in fucking high school, and I wasn't even fully sworn into the military yet. Most of them don't believe that it is worth the expense of collateral damage, that's why a lot of them come home in a deep state of depression, sometimes killing themselves, or becoming homeless alcoholics, it's all they can ever think about for some, others succeed in keeping it their "box", but they know the box is there, and they always try to steer clear of that "box", it's easy to see when you talk to them about what they do. Yeah it's the love police guy, I think you're talking about Charlie Veitch though, I'm talking about his partner Danny Shine who hasn't seemed to have lost his views, Charlie is a little different though. I'm not sure if you were trying to make a point about him being arrested or not, but all I have to say about that, is that I think it's sad that security forces can impersonate police, but a man can't wear a costume like they do, and speak his ideas freely. =/

And when I was speaking of love, I wasn't talking about specifically this community and the military, I was talking about all people, stranger to stranger, most people seem to want to avoid all person to person contact if they can manage it, focusing on their own small circle of friends and remaining afraid of the general population because of the way the media try to present the general population as crazy stabbers and shooters who hate everything for no reason. Looking at a newspaper, everything is about murder and rape and robbings and disease and such, I think it is done on purpose to make people afraid of each other.

[Laz]

see hugo chavez

[shakur420]

So, the dudes who crashed a plane into the trade center, or dropped nukes on Japan, I'm supposed to "love" them if they shed tears for their victims? Because they carry around burdens? Sorry. Knowingly causing suffering to innocents is not acceptable, whether by a "freedom fighter" or mercenary. I don't think that I can keep a straight face when I hear about soldiers in war zones, dropping bombs, bringing live ammunition into neighborhoods, etc. being unaware that they are causing innocent people to suffer. They know, like you said, they justify it by believing that their well being is more important than that of the backwards people they are killing. It's an old story, aggressors using their might to bring "civilization" to the savages - for completely benign, or humble reasons of course. Never mind the resources. Never mind global politics and history of selfish motivations. Never mind that a 5 minute personal reflection on the matter is enough to lead any rational person to conclude that the local mafia Don is not doing things for anyone's benefit, save his own. I mean, who could possibly think that suiting up and bringing arms to a foreign country is gonna hurt people, right?

You really expect me to believe that soldiers are that dumb? That they don't know what they're doing? Of course they do. I'll point out again that you mentioned it. They know, they just justify it because they, like all people in history, feel that their well being and luxury can be honorably achieved and maintained off the blood, sweat and tears of others, that their interests, their motivations are pure, benign, in self defense and generous "sacrifice for their people". Hitler was acting in self defense too, maybe we should be understanding of him and his soldiers?

I still don't get what the big issue is with hating occupiers, military aggressors. They're the bad guys, remember? The guys who rape, murder, strangle, dominate, exploit, all that good shit. What about "traffickers", pimps? What if they do what they do, making "sacrifices" to feed their families. I'm supposed to feel all this "love" and shit for dudes who kidnap girls and send them off to be prostitutes in other countries - simply because they speak to their families of remorse and sadness, while they continue doing what they do? While they continue raping girls, imprisoning them, beating them? Their words of "remorse" and feelings of "burden" should mean something to me? Or is there something wrong with that picture because, as a society, we don't recognize the honorable "tradition" of pimps, like we do with the military? Our state-run gangs that go around as our enforces while we pimp the world? What's the difference, and why the fuck should I feel anything for those who support, authorize or carry out that "tradition"?

Carrying "burdens" and shit? They get off easy. Their victims get their heads blown off, loose their homes, become refugees, die of starvation, see their children die in front of them, see their house bombed, their livelihoods destroyed, their culture, societies and countries obliterated. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't seem like such a bad thing to hate the soldiers who accomplish this shit while they plead ignorance - and the culture that supports them.

[lookleftdude]

@shakur: I think you have excellent points, it is hard to explain what it's like, they are not going into neighborhoods with the goal of harming citizens, like most people against the military try to make it seem, they are there fighting against the "bad guys" they are taught to believe are the real problem. I can't put it in any other words, and I'm not trying to justify what they are doing, I'm telling you, that they do not know what they are doing is wrong, you are feeling anger toward the gun and the bullet, the gun and the bullet will always exist, someone will always make them, someone will always use them, I'm trying to convince you, to get mad at the man pointing the gun and pulling the trigger, wether you believe it or not, those men and women feel their actions are completely justified, and I don't think they are to blame, because frankly they are just as human as me, and I refuse to believe I am simply better than these millions of people who participate in the military. The government, and corporations are the man pointing the gun and pulling the trigger, they are the problem, not the gun. The gun has no enemies, it has no friends, it is created to destroy whatever is controlling it wants it to destroy, and it is here now, it will not simply disappear, and it's bullets are too big to try to fight on our own. I think we have no choice but to try to get our hands on it, and take it away from the government and corporations. Because what the government and corporations don't know is, that the gun they have created (the U.S. gun, there is more than one gun) has a secret sympathy for "civilians", and if the gun understands that us "civilians" want revolution, then it will not shoot it's only ally. It will do two things, if we properly overtake it, either it will be so divided over protecting us or destroying us, that it will explode in the shooter's hand, or it will turn itself around and shoot the man pulling the trigger. I know that is a ridiculous metaphor, but it seemed to be the best way I could try and explain it.

---

And thank you for taking the time to oppose my theories btw. All of my friends who are against the the powers that be think similarly to the way I do, so I don't often get a chance to see how my theories work out when presented to other people.

[psy0nyd3]

I'm sure most everyone has seen this footage, its probably like the most famous thing wikileaks has released, but I wonder if the guy pulling the trigger here honestly believes he's making the world a better place..... Btw, the van has children inside on the way to school.



One of the military guys at the end when he sees the kids, "Well, its their fault for bringing their kids to a battle!" Battle being their own neighborhood.

[lookleftdude]

Please don't make this a persuasive media war, we could both start posting propaganda to support both our sides, and neither of us would be victorious. There are plenty of videos of soldiers building homes and schools, bringing candy and school supplies to children, and such things. It seems apparent in that video that they were under the impression those men were armed. Yeah, it sounds like they don't care about the men they killed, because they think they're getting revenge for all of their brothers who have died in battle, like I said, they are taught to believe those are the bad guys, and like I said before, not EVERYONE in the military is a good person. I hope that video doesn't corrupt this thread into a frenzy of anger and resentment..

[psy0nyd3]

^It wont corrupt the thread but my only reason for posting that was to pose the question whether or not its possible he thought he's making the world a better place.

I have more than enough love for all, except the rapist, but as has been mentioned, There are no excuses, accountability is necessary. Murder is murder, it is not collateral damage.

[lookleftdude]

Yes, let me tell you what's going through his mind right now "I've just killed 5 of those bastards that could have shot one of my brothers, and got some kids too, now those dirty terrorist spawn won't grow up to kill my son who will probably be in this never ending war, I have saved at least 20 civilians lives from possible suicide bombings, and have secured a few AK's that the terrorists will not be able to use against us, as well as possibly gaining intelligence from what's inside the van." He thinks that what his just did was a very good thing, and that he has made a sacrifice of his innocence and his soul for the greater good, it's obvious he has done this lots of times before, because he seems to be getting enjoyment out of it, which means he's probably seen some of his close friends get murdered by one of these "terrorists" he thinks he hates. Can't you see his ignorance in the video? He doesn't believe it is that man's neighborhood, he believes it is the civilian's neighborhood and that this "terrorist" is infiltrating it to his advantage.

---

I don't think you guys understand my point, I'm not trying to convince you that what they are doing is OK, I'm not trying to convince you that the war really is justifiable, I'm trying to convince you to see that these men and women think they're doing it for you, and that if enough people tell them to stop listening to the government and corporations, they will stop doing so. That video if anything should make my point more true, simply because they felt so victorious after they did it. Even if it is hard to watch, imagine what kind of state they must be in, to actually do it? Remember, they are people just like you and me, and more than that, they are not evil people, they have a good heart in the right place. I hope that video will only show you just how under the influence they really are.